Reality-in-Scale has added some laser-cut stone streets, cobblestones, etc to their offerings. Haven't seen them in person, but the photos look good ... marked as 1/35 scale ... laser-cut in cardboard ... sample photo below. Other enlarged views available on their web site ... click "Roads & Sidewalks" category:
http://www.realityinscale.com/
Cheers,
Dallas
Dallas
These items seem like perfect candidates for Dave to do in O scale, so y'all might want to send him a note or two in case he doesn't browse this thread. If you look here:
http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=1055.msg17378#msg17378
... you'll find the basics for custom work ... and seems possible based on the replies that Frederic and/or Russ might be willing to help with some artwork ... and there are others on the forum equally capable to do the drawings. So ... get to work making drawings or finding someone who will! ;D
Cheers,
Dallas
Frederic,
think you will find all the info you need on this site , about halfway down this page are the details for the "European fan pattern"
http://www.pavingexpert.com/setts01.htm#efp
I have still been experimenting with paving/setts this is a carved plaster I produced last week with the thought of using it as a master for some resin casting. The joints have been deliberately cut deeper than they should be to allow me to fill later with mortar/bitumen/dust/weeds, etc as required. White plaster is a bit difficult to photograph but hopefully you can see that roadway is trying to show some hollows/bumps and subsidence to provide "age" . This is 1/24 scale.
Thanks for the link, Gordon.
Here is the result of a first evening of drawings. (A gif image extracted from the pdf file).
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftestard.frederic.pagesperso-orange.fr%2Fcobblestone.gif&hash=c399f8cf4b1ecd41f91443d69952b30b6027b8ca)
Comments welcome.
Frederic --
If you study the cobblestone photo that I posted in the earlier message, it looks like each stone is actually a slice of an arc. This is most apparent if you concentrate on the stones nearest the center of each circle.
It looks like your stones are square or nearly-square, and thus produces more mortar areas that seem a bit large.
Actually, looking closer at your drawing, it seems that the second row from the center in each fan-shape pattern has the stone shape that I'm trying to describe. I think it would be more pleasing to repeat that outwards ... but please wait for additional input before taking my advice! ;)
Cheers,
Dallas
Hi Dallas (and the others). Forum has been quiet these past days...
Well, I made some modifications to the drawing.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftestard.frederic.pagesperso-orange.fr%2Fcobblestone2.gif&hash=01a34b2dd6347e65fecec850790d2ce4e2d0140c)
Again, comments are welcome.
Frederic pointed me out to this thread. Cobblestones are a good news / bad news / good news situation for laser cutting. The bad news is, a lot of surface area means a lot of machine time, and most laser operators charge by the minute. But the good news is, textures like this are one area where the machine can produce very nice results. The other good news is, the laser made part can be used as a master for simple plaster casting, then you can make many more pieces, very quickly and economically.
A 3d effect can be added to nicely round out the edges of the cobbles, randomly raise and lower the heights by a fraction, etc. However once 3d goes into the mix, the machine time might go up. This gets complicated to explain, but its basically because 3d forfeits manual power adjustment. To increase or decrease the amount of power fired at the material's surface, the simplest way is to decrease or increase speed. It can also be done in the graphic, but 3d graphics can get complicated, tweaking them ends up adding a lot of set up time, which is costly.
And speaking of 3d graphics, and since today is Labor Day, here are some 3d laser cut burgers and dogs.
;D
Dang, man, those aren't even bite size! Did you do the painting on these samples? Real nice coloring and shading on these tiny little bits.
Cheers,
Dallas
Dave, do you mean that if the white area was slightly reduced and the space between the gray and white was replaced by a whiter shade of gray, the cutter would automatically know it must engrave less deeply? It shouldn't be too hard to modify the basic file to get an eps rendition of this. Now it might be a big eps file, about 2 megs. Is it a problem for the machine?
And congrats for your little meal. It's impressive (but wouldn't feed a scale copy of me, I'm afraid... :) ).
Frederic, the way you described, it would only create a step in the paving stones. In order to creat a curved or slope you need to use a feather edge. I hope the attached graphic explains it better.
Dallas, funny you mention painting, as there is almost no paint at all on these food models. The bun bread is naked cardstock, it comes out of the laser the proper color. It starts out a dough color, and the laser basically toasts it. A little brown weathering chalk is all they need.
The burgers are brown card, cheese is yellow paper. Only the dogs are painted, but they are a separate layer of card, so its a simple job. A few specks of yellow paint applied with a pin makes the mustard. The hard part is finding the pieces when they fall on the floor.
Well, I suppose I can do the feather. I'll try one of these evenings.
Edit : I forgot to ask. What should be the width of the gentle slope in the last of the three sketches?
Hi Frederic. Width of slopes, things like that are artistic not technical, so its just something you have to sort of get a feel for by looking at 1/1 cobblestones. To make a curve as opposed to a straight slope, your feathering has to transition light to dark, with the dark building up faster as it approaches the edge of the raised object. But for something like cobblestones its not critical. 3d is a murky area. It would be difficult to learn without direct access to a machine, even most laser operators don't go there.
Dave
HI Dave,
What type of files do lasers use?
Russ
Hey Russ, laser engravers seem to be optimized for Corel, but I use Adobe Illustrator on mine. I've also accidentally sent a print job from a word processing program to the laser and it engraved the page, no problem. Rule of thumb, if it will print on a printer, it will engrave in the laser.
Some CAD type files need specific software to open and read them, that's a problem if the laser operator doesn't have the same program on his computer. I run into that problem a lot. Had to turn down a bunch of jobs.
Dave
Thanks Dave,
Wow, OK, makes sense. It's basically a laser printer with a bada$$ laser. I wasn't sure if you could read nc, txt, dfx, etc. The post processor for my router uses them, but I wasn't sure if it operated the same way. I draw in autocad then save as a dxf, which the PP converts to a text file. I have a raster program that converts to .nc, but I have no idea what the actual difference might be. They both look the same code wise in the code window of my control program.
Thanks for the info.
Dave, have you tried to read the eps file I "sent" you? No emergency but it's to see if this direction works.
Hi Frederic, yes and I sent a PM reply. Did you get it? Please check and LMK. One file worked, but would not let me edit everything, the other file worked as normal. I think that was the .eps
Thanks Dave. I usually receive emails to tell me there's a PM but apparently it didn't work thus my question.
It's easier to me to make eps files than pdf due to memory limitations of my converter so it's good you were able to work with the eps.
Now question to the group : is there an interest in this cobblestones? As Dave mentionned, the lasercutting of these is expensive because there's a lot of work, but cutting one and then replicating with a mold and plaster castings could be interesting. I'm not in business, nor do I model cobblestoned places, but I'd be glad to let one of the 'businessmen' :) here use the file I wrote for free. (Even if I still plan to add the 3D feather relief Dave suggested a few posts earlier).
Russ I re-read your post (all those references to digital file types do my head in) just noticed the reference to CNC router. Are you using one in your miniature work? Hope you'll tell us more about that. Anything miniature CNC is very interesting.
Dave
Hi Dave,
Yes, as a matter of fact I do use it for some of my work, particularly brick. I have a small table top router that I had to modify to hold a high speed dental hand piece, add a vacuum table and a dust collection system. None of them being an option from the factory. I messed around with doing brick by hand, but was not happy with it. I just can't get over running into bricks while cutting vertical lines. Not to mention creating different patterns. I can now mill out any bond pattern (English, American, Flemish, rat-trap, etc.) for single plane brick walls in any scale. It's not a production machine and I use it strictly for tooling because it usually takes a few hours to engrave a brick pattern on a plaster slab. It's not fast, but it beats the heck out of hand carving and I'll be making a mold from the piece anyways.
Using the router is a bit tricky because I'm using hard tooling where the laser uses soft tooling. Annoying things like tool lengths and offsets make it somewhat more cumbersome. I don't have any real 3d programs, which I'm not sure if it would help anything anyways, so I have to think 3d in 2d and create 3d by depth of cut. Plus, I don't have an auto tool changer and Mach3 doesn't support it and that makes it even more cumbersome. Just think about having to mill out a fancy brick wall with detailed cornices, or eaves with modillion and machicolation patterns, then having to change tooling and the program just to engrave the brick mortar lines. It's more annoying than anything. It's easier to make the parts separately then build up the wall pattern. Needless to say, I just can't throw a blank sheet of plaster in there and let it rip. I wish!
I do have a photo milling raster program that I experimented with to see if it would work for random stone walls, but the end result still looks computer generated. I would need to do some serious hand work to make them look acceptable. It does have possibilities for specific proto work, but it's still requires time consuming drawing manipulation.
Fredrick,
I'd like to try out your cobble stone program if you don't mind. I have seen .eps extension in the "save as" in one of my programs, so it may be able to work.
No problem if you want to use the cobble stone file. Do you wish me to do the 3d feathering as explained by Dave, or will you take it as is?
Hi Fredrick,
Let's try it as is.
Russ
Russ, I've sent you a PM with the link to get the file.
Hey guys,
Sorry for the long wait. I was able to download your file Frederic, but my programs kept converting it to a bit map. It did work, but the resolution is rather lame. I had to use my raster program. Honestly, a high contrast B&W photo would have worked just as well except you'd have to take the photo from an airplane or high building. These raster programs work rather well for carving out not-to-detailed photo lithophanes (back lit photo carvings)which look detailed to the naked eye, but suck for our level of detail. Especially under the camera.
Yes, I could have dialed in the step-over, but the time to carve this piece was around 2 hrs plus. So, for scale brick and cobblestone work
I'd be better off with line drawings.
(https://www.nebrownstone.com/images/cobblestone_experiments/Testard.JPG)
(https://www.nebrownstone.com/images/cobblestone_experiments/Testard-2.JPG)
Indeed the close-up is not very attractive, Russ...
Dave or Russ, could you send me a very simple .eps file that works for your laser - and your drawing program - so as to check what postcript functions they read easily and guess why the file couldn't be read properly?
How would you propose getting rid of the steppy, stripey finish?
Also, real cobbles are not that regular. You need an element of irregularity with any architectural feature as they, unlike the computer stuff, are laid by real people.
This looks like that old stuff Preiser or Faller used to do in the 60s.
Martin
Sorry, Martin, next time I'll think twice before sending a computer generated pattern.
Dave, Russ, I might try to put a little randomness on my lines - after all, I have a phd in probability - if you wanted to show me the kind of eps file your laser cutter reads correctly.
Frederic , I'm all for taking the drudgery out of a job if possible. Please don't get me wrong there.
But the steppiness looks like a lot more work to clean up. And the regularity needs a bit of interruption, though quite how you'd do that on a computer I don't know.
These very continental patterns of cobbling are admittedly fairly precise, if I remember my time in Bavaria, but look at an average British cobbled street and they're all over the place, something I think would test a computer's ability to randomise severely. IF it can be done and with a smooth finish, you've got a winner.
Until then, an old patternmaker like me still has a chance of earning a crust!
Martin
Hi Martin,
This was only a test to see if I could read Frederic's eps file, which I wasn't really familiar with, or how it acted. The first drawing I was playing with ended up being saved as a bitmap, so I used a raster program that I have that obviously didn't work as well as I'd have liked. However, I am happy to say that I was able to get the eps file to work on another program and can now node edit. Like you said, there's a lot of hand work both on the computer and post milling.
Hi Russ,
thanks for the explanation. If only I knew what the bejayzuz you were talking about, but I get the gist.
If you can clean that up in the pootah, then it will be a lot better. Smooth off yer nodes, bro! All that stuff.
BTW, I checked out your brownstone site. Very nice stuff you do, but I must take you to task on the comments about English and Flemish bonds. They are most certainly NOT for effect and accents! They are found in all 9" walls, I'm looking at one where I sit. It's an agricultural house built in 1912. Solid, but not fancy and it is a rather strange mixture of English and Flemish, probably reflecting changes in that one hundred years. Walls between properties are also usually English bond for self standing support.
American bond would, I imagine be prone to internal bowing if the leaves are only tied at every 6th course, unless you have a well established steel tie technique.
Don't forget, in Europe, especially England, we have brick everywhere because we have the clays from which they are made. We have also been doing it rather longer.
My friend's house, partly 15th century, partly 14th century had the usual mediaeval thinner bricks in it's sole plate and even thinner paviours on the floor, but the soleplate bricks were still an approximation of English bond.
The rest of the house was timber frame and wattle of course.
So, if you're stuck for something to have a mess around with one rainy day, we'd all appreciate some of your lovely brick sheet in English bond, old son.
Ta very much!
Martin
In my experience, almost nothing works on the first try. Making natural looking cobblestones using a milling machine and a computer graphic is relatively ambitious, so I'd expect quite a few more rejects before a convincing product. But I believe there is a potential solution. Like Edison said about inventing the light bulb "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work"
As for .eps files etc. I know almost nothing about them, not a computer guy. I take a trial and error approach.
Just to add a photo to the discussion, here is a laser engraved HO cobble street section. I've been talking over improvements with BKLN since then. But I believe it shows the potential for computer graphics + machine.
Hi Martin, thanks for the info on the bricks. In my own defense, the only examples I've seen of English and Flemish bonds were esthetic in nature, but that's over here. You're right, you guys have been laying brick long before this place was even considered real estate. I'm sure any original brick lay was intentionally structural and patterns were a form follows function kind of thing, but from what I've observed that by the time this place became fully industrialized most masons were using the American bond as typical with accents of English and Flemish bonds. The one example I have of a Flemish bond is questionable if it's a true bond and not simply a hanging wall with a bunch of half bricks.
Good question about the bowing. I assume(key word) the other common courses were interlocked with the internal bricks by the mortar. I'm not a mason by day, so I don't know. Also, most of my examples are from 1900ish industrial buildings, which tended to have quite a few courses within each wall and end up being one homogeneous mess that would keep the outer layers of bricks from bowing or falling away. I guess.
You're right about the rounding of nodes and like Dave says, it's quite an ambitious project. And, he's right about getting it right the first time. Nothing worse than checking the drawing over and over and giving it the green flag only to find the things you missed are the first things you see after running the machine for 30-60 minutes, or more. Back to the handwork. Actually, I always need to go back and handwork all walls, regardless. The human touch is what gives it the randomness. It can also ruin the piece.
The machine I have is not a means to the end. It's just a tool, or a step in the process for making tooling and I never had any illusions of me taking a picture and converting it into code and ending up with a finished product. I wish.
I'll adjust the site to reflect your insight. I'd rather someone correct me than for me to pass on erroneous info. Thanks again,
Russ, thanks.
It was not meant as a criticism of your excellent site. Heaven knows I've been on the rough end of that before myself with my slot racing bodies site!
I was reading it wrong, in fact. I was taking your comments on English and Flemish bonds from, naturally I suppose, a Limey perspective. It didn't occur to me that those bonds might be used in America at all! In which case they probably were used for aesthetic accents, though, if used properly they do tie a wall together nicely. Our industrial buildings display a quality of bricklaying that is often staggeringly high. I once stood looking at a place in Tamworth, Staffs. which had typical glazed Staffordshire brick laid in such a way that the mortar was little more than 1/8" thick and perfect.
It had been a chapel, I think, but was now used by a hi-tech outfit who designed lube systems for Indy cars!!
I stood there so long taking pictures that they came out and questioned me. They seemed put out by my being more impressed with a long dead brickie's skills than their hi-tech pumps or whatever they made.
Of course, where a 9" wall becomes a 13" wall, the bond changes yet again and I haven't studied enough to pass an informed opinion, but I shall go looking for some! That could put the cat amongst the pigeons on both sides of the pond!
BTW, are your walls etc done in plaster? Maybe I was tired last night late, but I didn't get the info immediately.
NOT a criticism. I can't look now, I have an engine in pieces and the sun's out!
Tea break over, back on me 'ead!
cheers,
Martin
From "Technical Notes on Brick Construction (http://www.gobrick.com/bia/technotes/t30.htm)" .. there is (1) Structural Bond - The method by which individual masonry units are interlocked or tied together to cause the entire assembly to act as a single structural unit and (2) Pattern Bond - he pattern formed by the masonry units and the mortar joints on the face of a wall. The pattern may result from the type of structural bond used or may be purely a decorative one unrelated to the structural bonding.
Basically, English and Flemish bonds alternate with bricks that run at right angles to the face to tie everything together (headers and stretchers). The Running Bond where there are just stretchers (the long side of the brick) are decorative since they lack the headers that tie the wall together .. metal ties can be used .. but they are largely used in cavity wall construction and veneered walls of brick.
That ties in (no pun intended) with my ONC Building Construction, except that a single leaf wall of stretcher bond isn't purely decorative. Many low walls, like front garden walls and the walls of conservatories, outside toilets, little sheds, etc. will likely be single leaf. This difference is another little thing that brings a model scene alive.
It is also why a two story extension to a house would always need a double leaf wall in the first place to build upon.
Many car garages in domestic applications are single leaves of brick or block, but need a brick or block pillar (9x9) every 8 feet.
Stretcher bond also is the norm these days since all walls have to be cavity and insulated, but are generally tied with steel butterfly ties with a drip notch in their centres to stop condensation gathering.
The Essex Design Guide over here allowed wooden internal structures to be put up with a single leaf external wall in brick, but I have no information on how they are tied to the insubstantial plywood interior "leaf".
I saw the show town for the Essex Design Guide being built and although these new and rather looser rules were at work, the quality of brickwork was very high compared to the average modern build. I actually saw an old brickie hand rubbing red bricks to effectively carve the date into a section of brickwork in the frontage of the Town Hall.
When I lived in Devon, there was a new cheese factory being built at the bottom of the village, mainly by Irish brickies. They were paid, in 1972, £10 a thousand and regularly laid 10,000 bricks each per day! £100 a day was damned good money then and they spent a good deal of it in our shop in the village square. Times wuz good!
Martin