Westlake Publishing Forums

Folks,
I spend a lot of time watching the amazing work on this website, but I haven't posted any of my own work.
I seem to spend more time learning new techniques than actually building anything.  (I'm not the only one with this problem...)

Anyway, I'm working on a new project and I could use some feedback.

I started scratchbuilding a caboose for my Kentucky Northern Railway over a year ago but stalled on painting and weathering.  My goal was to replicate a well-used, but not derelict car.  The kind of car owned by a not-so-prosperous shortline.

My caboose is roughly based on this photo of a standard gauge car owned by the Louisville & Atlantic Railroad, which connected with the Kentucky Northern upriver from Irvine, Kentucky. 

Finding good drawings of eastern narrow gauge equipment is tough, so I started with D&RGW caboose drawings from Robert Sloan's book.  I drew the basic forms in CAD to make sure I liked the proportions and things didn't look too "Colorado."

And here are the plans...

And the sections.
On the other drawings you can see I've borrowed the truck drawings from Bob Hartford's instructions for his Carter Brothers swing motion trucks.  I decided to use these trucks rather than scratchbuilding my own.  At the time, I didn't have any good images of trucks I knew were specific to a local builder like the Ohio Falls Car Company in Jeffersonville, Indiana.  (I've since found some surviving trucks, but that's another story.)

I've been using this image to set the look and feel of the interior.
I found the image online using a Google image search, but I'm afraid I don't recall where the image came from.

So here's where I am on the project. 

I've got the frame and running gear built using Hartford's trucks and a few miscellaneous castings from Ozark.  The rest is scratchbuilt from basswood and brass.  I've stained the wood and applied base coats to the metal parts, but haven't done much weathering to the undercarriage.

I've decked the frame and built the end rails and ladders. 

The shell has been assembled and has been painted and lettered, but only partially weathered.  The interior fittings have mostly been built and partially weathered, but not glued together yet.

The roof is in progress. 

Here's one end of the frame.  I'm not happy with the appearance of the wood.  It's too consistent and too light.  I'm guessing the underside of the caboose would have been painted originally, but it's too late to attempt a weathered painted finish at this point.

Would it be best to just apply dark brown and black washes?

Here's another shot with the truck installed.

So what do you all think I should do?

Eric,
First off, that is some beautiful workmanship your producing on that caboose project, very careful and clean.

Secondly I would like to comment on the prototype interior shot that you shared, that is a great picture in many ways.

I am no expert by any standard but I wonder if you used a wash of the coach color to darken the wood then used the weathering washes over that to get a final result, it may produce what your looking for.

I'm not so sure it is even legal let alone appropriate to use Carter Brothers trucks on an East Coast railroad ;) ;D

Great work, thanks for sharing it.
Rick

Yeah, Carter Brothers trucks really scream "west coast" to me, but I've seen far worse crimes against accuracy.

I wouldn't worry about the underbody, as I understand it they usually weren't painted (imagine crawling around underneath a freight car with a paint bucket and a brush!).  I don't think the risk of ruining that completely adequate* modeling is worth the potential payoff.  The weathering and grain are really nice and not all too light to my eye.  Considering that car lumber was carefully selected and seasoned and sheltered from the worst of the weather, I'd avoid too much random variation for the sake of random variation, even if all the other kids are doing it.

What scale are you working in?  The mention of Ozark makes me suspect it's large.



* The only overt giveaway that it's a model is that one bit of sapwood visible on the intermediate sill on the right side.  I won't tell anybody.    ;) 

Eric, you're really building a nice model. Don't worry about stains or paints on the underframe. Many were unpainted. Maybe some judicious use of weathering powders and/or a very light mist of cinder dust or whatever color the dirt is where the railroad operated. Keep it subtle because so far everything else really looks good. Wonderful reference photos and plans. -- Russ

I like the proportions of the car, it definitely has a feel distinctly different from the Colorado narrow gauge cabeese.  Very nice modeling as well, I assume this is large scale.

That's a great subject, Eric, and your progress pictures on the trucks and underside of the caboose are very inspiring. I love the interior shot too, and am eager to see how you'll translate it into a model.

Beautiful first rate work, really enjoyed looking at these photos and drawings.   I've also found it very helpful to start a model with a set of drawings.   

Dave

Thanks for the feedback guys.  I figured someone would bring up the Carter Brothers trucks.  I know I'm breaking some major taboos, but I decided scratchbuilt trucks would a project for another day.  It would be easy to replace them on the caboose at some point.

I've found surviving passenger trucks to measure and photograph, but no such luck for caboose trucks.  At least nearby.  There's a great narrow gauge coach at Mammoth Cave that rides on Ohio Falls trucks and has Louisville Car Wheel Company wheel sets.  I've started building some masters to cast copies, and one compromise I've been considering for the caboose is replacing the journal covers with Ohio Falls types.  That would at least eliminate the obvious "C B S F" text.

Here's a shot of the Ohio Falls journal covers.

Clicked too fast - sorry about that.

Trucks on cabeese built by the St. Charles Car Company in St. Louis, which shipped quite a bit of equipment to Kentucky, didn't have the side frame extensions supporting the brake beams like the Carter Brothers trucks.  That's the most obvious visual difference to me at least...

So back to the weathering.  I'm encouraged to hear an unpainted frame is not out of the question.  I've been thinking about the some wheel spray patterns at each truck.  Does this make any sense?  This would at least reduce the monochrome look that bothers me.

Here is a shot of the top side of the frame.  I've added a second layer of floor boards in the crew compartment, but left the first layer of decking exposed in the freight area.  (I don't know if this is accurate or not.)
I've also got a piece of sheet metal under the stove.

Weathering has been started with pigments and a dark brown acrylic wash.

And sorry about not mentioning the scale - it's 1:20.3.

Very effective coloring and texture. -- Russ

Nice looking clean, crisp build Eric!  Is that railroad a topic in Ghost rails of KY?



Philip

Thanks Philip!
The Kentucky Northern does make a brief appearance in Sulzer's book.  I'm taking a little historical license with my modeling since the Kentucky Northern was originally built as standard gauge.  It applied for approval to switch to narrow gauge in 1909 or so.  I haven't been able to find any records of whether or not this occurred, but the logging railroads that fed timber to the line were all 36" gauge, so it's not a stretch.

Using a little historical license gives me a little more modeling freedom.

You can still see some of the railroad bed from the road between Irvine and Beattyville.  But only in the winter!

I hope everyone had a good Christmas!

I've had a little time to work on the interior pieces.  Everything is built from basswood, with a coat of reefer gray with just a bit of light green added.  (I don't like the really green color used for a lot of caboose interiors.)

I've been playing around with some pigments for wear and tear.  I've realized the painted finish was too glossy for the pigments to work effectively, so chuck that up to a lesson learned.

I really appreciate the kind comments from everyone, but I'll have to admit I'm a bit disappointed.  I was hoping for more critique...

I made the seats from black Fimo, with thread glued to the edges to simulate the piping.  I gave them a base coat of warm brown, and then sponge painted a thinned black over that, followed by some drybrushing.
I'm not entirely satisfied with them, but this was my first try at modeling leather.

Eric, thise seats look very good to me! I agree, the whole build is very nice.

Quote from: EZnKY on December 28, 2010, 12:32:10 PM
I really appreciate the kind comments from everyone, but I'll have to admit I'm a bit disappointed.  I was hoping for more critique...

I don't see anything that needs critiquing. This is a very nice build!

Your seat cushions turned out great, I like the idea of using thread to form the seams, they look very realistic.

Chuck and Ray- I admire both of your work a great deal, so thanks for the feedback. 

I've temporarily clamped a couple of the interior walls together while the furniture bits and pieces have been drying.   Things are starting to get cramped working on the interior since I've glued some subassemblies together already.  (Probably too soon.)

This model just keeps getting better. I see nothing to criticize. -- Russ

I have a small question rather than a criticism because I know nothing of this rolling stock. Is the pot belly stove really going to sit directly in front of a window? In the reference photo on page one it appears more logically in front of a blank wall with a steel heat plate attached to the wall.

Well, I do have a small criticism really - every time I think I can show something I am building, something this good comes along and I feel completely underwhelmed by my efforts so I keep them to myself!!!

Ian,
Yes the stove will sit in front of the window, and I wondered about the same thing when I started looking at different caboose designs.  I found quite a few cases where the stove was obviously in front of a window, and a few cases where the smoke jack suggested the stove was centered on a window.  I placed the stove in the center of the crew compartment, but kept the window layout symmetrical.  Whether or not that was smart I'll leave up to the experts.

I have felt the same way about sharing my projects for a long time, but I encourage you to just jump in there.  For me, sometimes my eye sees flaws others don't, and vice versa.  I expected to get pounced on for my nail heads made with a needle, but I guess everyone is taking it easy on me since I haven't posted much before.  I suspect you'd receive the same courtesy!  (As long as there aren't antlers on any of your models.)

I had a tough day today folks.  I've had the roof built for a little while. but hadn't covered it yet. 
I tried a method I had read about years ago - covering the roof with 600 grit sandpaper to represent a tar paper roof - and hated the results.  So I tore it all off and started over using masking tape.
Came out much better the second time.  We'll see if paint covers the mistakes.

On a more positive note, I got the smoke jack built.  I'm going to try a salt mask for the paint.

I hope everyone has a great new year!

Wow, that smokejack turned out great! I would have thought it was full size, if I didn't know better.

Eric, back in the old Outdoor Railroader days I never would have guessed you were capable of such superior modeling. This model is a winner. -- Russ

The masking tape roof covering looks great.  I'd just be concerned about it sticking over the long term, even under a couple of coats of sealer.    Maybe you could cast the roof in resin, then its a single solid part with the texture you want.       

If you looking for a nice texture look on a roof , have you tried KLEENEX.

Take and split the 2 ply sheet into one ply.  Cut into scale 3 foot wide strips with SHARP scissors. Take floquil grimey black or weathered black  paint and put coat on roof , nice and wet. Lay the strips of kleenex carefully into the wet paint using a 3/4" wide soft brush for O scale. Fold the kleenex under the roof edge and apply coat of paint.  Half hour or earlier , take paint and brush a coat over the surface and leave to dry.   When dry select a paint that looks like tar...engine black ?..and use  a fine small pointed  brush do the lapped seams .

What you should have now is a nice textured roof surface that looks like canvas or tar paper if coloured corrctly with engine black and some weathering..

Just my thoughts on the subject..........mike

I got a base coat on the roof today and I think it'll be salvageable. 

Dave- I sealed the edges of each course of masking tape with super glue, so I'm hoping it will stay stuck over the long term.  I read about this method on Jack Thompson's website. (http://4largescale.com/Thompson/49.htm) 

Mike- I've read about the Kleenex method but haven't tried it yet.  Next project maybe...

Russ-  Thanks for the kind words.  I've learned a lot since then.  And made a lot of mistakes.

Some more progress shots of the smoke jack and roof surface.

I gave the smoke jack a base coat of engine black, followed by sponge painting with cheap orange and brown acrylics, followed by a thinned coat of roof brown to tone down everything. 

The roof has been washed with some thinned black acrylic, and drybrushed with gray and light brown acrylic.  I'm planning on adding some weathering powders when I get closer to the end. 

Comments and critique welcome!

And an overall shot of the area.

The roof looks great. I like the toned down effect on the stack. Really nice transition from a new black stove pipe to one that is in use.


One of the roof materials I have used is egyptian cotton 600+ thread count glued down with any of the carpenter glues.  It is probably more applicable to canvas covered roofs as the edges if cut into strips has a tendency to fray until the glue has cured.

cheers Ferd

I like it! Your grab irons are especially clean looking.

Ditto what Chuck said.  This is a precise, well-executed and SUPER kool project.
Very nice work!

Very nice work ;D

Thanks guys - I really appreciate the encouragement.

I'm a really slow and inexperienced modeler compared to most of you, so the kind words help.

Eric --

The detailing and finishes on your caboose are amazing!  Gotta go back and take a long, lingering look at each of the photos again ...

Bravo!
Dallas

I'm going to upload a bunch of pictures, so bear with me.
I think I'm done with all of the major sub-assemblies, so it's time to start gluing stuff together.
My plan is to focus on the details and overall weathering once it's all together.  (I've struggled in the past with consistency when I've weathered the pieces separately.)

I'd like some feed back on how far to take the weathering.  I either seem to stop too early, or go to far. 

I'll start with the interior furniture...

And here's the frame...

And the shell...

The underside of the shell...

And the roof.

Beautiful! The furnishings look spot-on, especially the finish and "weathering". How did you make the hinges on the cabinet doors?

Thanks Ray!
The hinges are castings from Ozark.  I sanded the backplates quite a bit thinner, which really helped their appearance.

Here's a close up.  (Please pardon the dust on the cabinet - I never seem to see this stuff until looking at the pictures on screen.)

Eric, this is a fantastic model, every bit as good as anything else displayed on this site, in my opinion.

I really love the seats, it's nice to see some sculpting done, not just some wildly overscale fabric glued to a piece of balsa wood. And the leather finish is perfect.

As to the weathering, I think you're 95% there already...Looks great!!

Tom

P.S. Sorry I can't be more critical, I just can't find anything to pick on...

Eric, I love your model. It's so nicely detailed and finished!

Thanks for the continued encouragement!

I've made a little progress in the past couple of days.  I've glued the major sub-assemblies together without major mishap, and i's good to finally see the interior taking shape.

I've also built a water cooler for the sink.  It's thin brass sheet wrapped around a wood block, with some pipe fittings, a little brass rod, and a walkway brace casting used for the bracket.  Sort of like something they might have actually used.

Sorry about the stump in the second picture - I don't want to glue it in place until I'm done weathering it.

I've also bought some window glass from Clover House.  Any suggestions on how to weather the glass?  It's incredibly clear at present.  Ridiculously clear.  I'm thinking about some dust-colored pigments in the corners.  Or would a thin wash be better?

Eric --

Beautiful construction & detailing ... fabulous model!

Cheers,
Dallas

Yes it is coming out well. I really like the clean crisp construction.

I have used fine powdered dirt on glass, but only on the backside where it won't be disturbed. Not sure what i would do for two sided glass. Pigment powders at least can be removed if you dont like them.

I really like the dirty white!

Exceptional in every detail.....great!

Anders ;D

I really love it, Eric. It's very inspiring.
I always have the feeling when I see these large scale models that it's easier to model in such a size.
And I perfectly know it's not, in particular since the smallest details will eventually be the same actual size as the smallest ones in other scales.
I'll have to make something big some day to make my own experience of this.

Thanks so much everyone!

Frederic-  you're right the larger scales pose a unique set of challenges.  You can use the power of suggestion at smaller scales, relying on the viewers imagination and past experience to "fill in the gaps."  That doesn't work in large scale since everything is so visible.  But then there are also times when the scale is too small to tackle the next  level of detail.  I guess this is what makes it fun!

Chuck-  I'm worried about the two-sided glass as well.  I'm going to try a wash first since it's more permanent.  I ordered enough glass to sacrifice some pieces for the cause. 

Truly top-notch work! I too am impressed with the clean construction.

So far you have done everything right. -- Russ

Eric, I really like this caboose, great detail and your work is nice and clean.

Gordon Birrell

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77318580@N00/

Thanks everyone!
I've got glass in about half of the windows.  Tedious work. 

I've also tried a couple of approaches to weathering the glass and a thin wash of light tan paint seems to work the best for now.  You can't touch it though.

We had a tiny bit of sunshine today, so I took the caboose outside and shot a couple of quick pictures.  Interesting results.  I was afraid I had taken some of the weathering too far, but in the brighter sun, it almost disappears.  Just goes to show how much lighting makes a difference!

I'm getting close on this one.  Still working on the window glass, the side doors, and some touch up here and there.  And then some interior details; coffee pot, desk papers, cargo, etc.,

Here is a really subjective and not very strong nitpick: The finish looks slightly too "model" like at this stage. Maybe it's the perfect paint job and carefully applied highlights; I don't know. I also don't know how to "improve" on it since there's absolutely nothing "wrong" with with you have done.

Perhaps it would benefit from a very subtle touch of stain here and there, like a pin wash down the V-grooves.

Can one of our luminaries better express what I may be seeing and suggest a possible solution? Or tell me it's just the photo's lighting or my own unrealistic expectation?

Eric, PLEASE DON'T MESS WITH IT unless somebody can explain exactly what to do -- if anything -- and if you are certain you could  improve rather than compromise the finish. The model is so close to utter perfection, less would be more at this point. The model already is outstanding and likely could win a contest.

Russ

I COMPLETELY agree with you Russ, and I would love some input.  I can point to several missing tasks, but I'm not sure that will make the "leap" you and I are looking for.  For example, I've put some rust pigments on the roof below the smoke jack, but nothing on the wall below.  And there isn't any dust/grime on the bottom of the sides kicked up from the tracks.

I've tried pin washes before with mixed success, especially on scribed siding.

My opinion is things are just to deliberate and considered.  I wish I could relax and just let things happen more.  I need to channel a little Mac McCalla...

Eric,

been following your project and really like your work- a beautiful model. I agree with Russ. Am not a 'luminary' but having looked at the photo's I'll offer a couple of suggestions...

the original photo that inspired your model on page 1 does show very well defined planks- a pin stripe would appear to be the answer to replicate this, but...

your model looks odd in the second photo because there are lovely shadows across the tops of the side where the roof overhangs but none in the grooves of the planks- this would be fine if it were midday with the sun at 12 o'clock but the shadows from the end rails show the sun at an angle- I think this is why Russ picked up that something was amiss. If your layout lighting has a different effect then leave well alone!

If not you need to try to replicate shadows of similar hue to those under the roof in the grooves but a couple of reference shots that might help...

had a quick look through for equipment of a similar colour and found these from the EBT...

these would seen to indicate that a pin wash is indeed the way to go...

...alternatively there is just a little variation in colour here on individual planks...

actually I think the first photo shows off your finish really well and I'd be cautious about doing more.

If you were to use a thinish wash of oil paint you have the time to wipe paint away from the surface of the planks or to remove everything as long as the planks are adequately sealed first. I'd hate to see you take a step you regret though- hopefully this gets you on the way to making a decision on what to do!

If it were my model I'd be really proud of it just as it is!

James

Before anyone else contributes, here's one thing I see in James' examples: A slight irregularity between side boards in both color and surface height. Eric, you used scribed siding so your board surfaces are very regular and of consistent color. Better not try to mess with that or you could be courting disaster. You anticipated some of that irregularity on your reefer by staining some boards darker. (I wonder whether also adding slight grain to those boards before painting would help. Again, maybe somebody could comment ....)

Actually, though, the "darker" planks in James' caboose examples are refracting light differently because of deeper grain. If you look at them flat on, they are identical in color.

That's why my nitpick is so obnoxious. It seems to suggest you could do something at this late stage that, perhaps, you should have done with texture before you ever painted the model. And that is why I would be afraid to touch such a great model now unless I knew with certainty I could improve it.

Still, such little tidbits are good to remember when you build the next model. Marc Reusser taught me some valuable lessons by nitpicking a couple of my finished models.

Russ

     Eric,

     you did a marvelous job on the caboose and reefer.  I agree with Russ not to touch the caboose further till you have a garanteed methode of improvement.
     Some fading done with powders don't look right to me, but it could be the lightfall. Difficult to say, I don't have a solution based on what I see from the photo's.
     Only seeing it "alive" makes remarks valid.

   

QuoteMarc Reusser taught me some valuable lessons by nitpicking a couple of my finished models

    In general, that what is missing in most topics nowadays.

     Jacq

I guess Jacq is saying we tend to be too liberal with applause and too stingy with constructive comments so perhaps we need more balance.

It's more fun to see a bunch of "fantastic job" posts than a list of things you might have improved. But you learn nothing from compliments.

When I built my first paper structure, I took it to a meet and asked for criticism. I received about two or three reluctant critical comments. My first reaction was that the guys were nitpicking just to come up with something and I was annoyed by the "trivial" nature of what they said. Then I looked at the model and realized, had I made those corrections, it would have had those little realistic touches that the very best modelers include.

Jacq's point is something all of us should think about. Positively and judiciously criticizing somebody else's model also will make us more critical of our own efforts.

Russ

Jacq and Russ,
I agree with everything you've said, and my only response is "bring it on!"  The thing that led to start participating in this community instead of just lurking was the realization I needed to look beyond myself if my modeling was going to improve.  I'll admit there are times the positive feedback is nice, especially if I'm struggling with a particular issue and an "atta boy" helps me through it.  But there are so many really skilled people here that we can all learn from.   I struggle with the final finish, and I want to get better.

I think part of the challenge in forums like this is the lack of human interaction.  You can't read a person's reactions online, so the tendency is to either be extra respectful, or a total a**hole. 

So again, "bring it on."

James,
I really appreciate the photos, and your comment about the lack of shadows between the boards is spot on.  I'll do a couple of experiments on some scrap wood before I attack the caboose.

Great job, so far. 
Back when I was in design school I would bring in a "finished" rendering and watch as the instructor would add just a few shadow lines, gradations and highlights that brought the rendering to life.  So little made so much of a difference.
Here are a few thoughts:
When working with wood the weathering can subtractive as well as additive. You can sand individual boards to achieve variation in paint condition.  Also, you can scrape to bare wood.  I think that the baggage door area would show more abuse and scraping from loading cargo.  Also, the edges of the platform steps might show more wear.
You are right, the car would benefit from some road grime on the lower sides. Also some wheel splash streaking on the ends from adjacent cars.
Find the softest lead pencil you can get your hands on (I use a 9B) and use it to create the burnished look on handrails and stirrups in the spots where everyone would grab or step.  The very slight reflectivity of the effect is one of those things that brings a model to life.
Geoff

I'm not sure what to do if anything. I think it is very close. Be careful!

Good advice from everyone - I really appreciate it.
I'm going to take a step away from the caboose for a little while so I don't rush anything.
Maybe do some finish tests on some scrap material.

Geoff - I experienced the same thing in architecture school.  Most people can tell when something is missing, but it takes a well developed eye to identify what's missing, and an experienced hand to make the corrections. 

Chuck - That's one of the things you do so well.  I look at your work and it's all there. 

I've used some scrap pieces from the reefer to test a black pin wash on the scribed siding and need some feedback.

The sample on the left has a black oil wash on the bottom half applied over the Floquil Caboose Red base coat.  (The wash stops at the bottom edge of the square opening.)  This is state of the caboose in the most recent photos - simply painted wood.  The biggest issue I see with this sample is the way the wash has absorbed unevenly.  The matt surface in the grooves also didn't allow the wash to spread very easily, requiring a lot more "touches" with the end of the brush.

The middle sample has two brush-applied coats of Future applied over the Floquil base coat.  The surface was lightly sanded with 600 grit after the Future dried.  The oil wash spread very easily, in fact I could touch the brush at the end of the groove and the wash wicked all the way to the square opening.  The wash also dried fairly uniformly.

The right hand sample has one airbrushed coat of Dullcote applied over the base coat.  I also sanded this sample with 600 grit.  The wash performed about the same as the Future sample.

My thought is to apply Dullcote and then apply the pin wash.  My concern with Future is creating a slick surface that will be hard to get rid of in later steps, but I see lots or amour modelers using glosscoats under their washes and filters.  I suppose I could spray Dullcote over the Future before applying pigments. 

Thoughts? 

I'm not sure about advice on the methods, but I wonder if you might want to do a larger test once you do narrow down a choice.

Sort of a paint swatch thing where it looks so different on a whole wall.

I have no idea what you ultimately may show us but, at least at this point, all three samples appear overstated. The blacks are too pronounced, both the boards and the joints. If you apoly another coat of red it might tone them down and produce a good result. I suppose none of us will know until you complete the experiment. But your desire to keep trying is admirable; forge on. -- Russ

I agree with you Russ, to a point.  I've seen models, including my own, where the final result was "flat" because later steps hid the contrast and color intensity of the base coats.  I've noticed a number of the really skilled AFV modelers start with fairly intense colors, knowing the effect will be diminished in later stages.  But since I've already finished some of the later steps on the caboose, I'm planning on making the pin wash fairly dilute. 

I'm also going to follow Chuck's advice and do a larger sample before attacking the caboose.  I'm going to try using some water color paint instead of the oils to see how it works.

We'll see what happens. 

Yeah. It all depends on how heavy the next coat of paint is. But, no matter how the samples turn out, please post the results. We'll all learn something. -- Russ