Hello all,
I have been experimenting with the cricut cutter. A new building I have been working on needed quite a few arc top custom windows. I spied a cricut cutter on sale at J. C. Moore $89.00. and wondered if it could handle a window project. One of the sales folks told me of a program that could use to design my own shapes. (http://www.craftedge.com/index.html)
With this program one can design the object in a cad program. (I use a free one called Alley Cad .(http://www.allycad.com/)
The Sure cuts a lot program will trace the drawing and then it can be refined. The program feeds the cricut and makes the cuts.
So far so good. It cuts card stock cleanly and scores .010 plastic well enough to pop the parts out. (just like die cutting.)
There is some variation in dimensions. I have not solved that problem, but, it has not been much of an issue on the windows.
I have attached a photo of the window experiments. Left to right, .010 black plastic window upper sash. I make two of these and then sandwich .005 clear stock between them. A second set of the lower sash is constructed and then glued to the back of the upper sash assembly. A frame is then glued to the front face.
The white window is constructed of card stock. I would prefer to construct the windows out of card so that I could paint the stock before cutting. I have not found a suitable glue for the card stock. I have sent for some Rocket Card Glue. It is supposed to be appropriate for glueing card to plastic.
So here's the deal. If anyone else is screwing around with the cricut or has ideas about how to use it, chime in.
Glueing the parts of this window and keeping the plastic pieces aligned and free from excess glue is a challenge. Help desired.
Jig suggestions terrific.
I have attached a few photos and drawings. If I could figure out how to load photos I would do that. Can someone help with uploading photos?
This is my first post to this fourm. Sorry to be so awkward.
Hi HJ
First, welcome to the forum. :)
I'm very interested in these digital cutter tools. I've read a lot of vague discussion on the model making forums, your photos are the first actual demo pieces I've seen close up. Do I assume correctly they are in HO scale?
Its clear from your results that the machine had trouble making right angles. It appears the blade is not lifted clear of the material and simply drags around the corners, leaving fillets on the inside corners, as on your parts. Suggest you try gaming the machine into lifting the blade at the corners. Four disconnected straight lines, instead of a box might do it.
Looking forward to seeing more results.
Dave
Dave, there's a tool like cricut, called Craft Robo, described here :
http://www.craft-robo.fr/
(sorry I'm aware of no english site for it, but I may have not looked seriously enough).
Here is an example of what can be done with it
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lrpresse.fr%2Ftrains%2Fdownload%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D41523&hash=e00d5646493db048f1b9535bcd45f251518e8ad9)
(found on a French forum at this address :
http://www.lrpresse.fr/trains/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26005&start=2415
Sorry, it is also in French, and many posts in the topic are simple jokes that have nothing to do with the subject, but it's interesting since it describes the progress made by a number of modellers from the beginning of their use of the tool to their current satisfactory level. I once read the whole topic and seem to remember that cricut was also mentionned as an alternative tool for this kind of job).
Hope this helps.
Another example (found on the page : http://www.lrpresse.fr/trains/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26005&start=2250 )
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lrpresse.fr%2Ftrains%2Fdownload%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D28095&hash=805097acbdef12e623798889355ce53a29369e8e)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lrpresse.fr%2Ftrains%2Fdownload%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D28096&hash=9f5b646ba0fb353c6571567eda1e675418266e2c)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lrpresse.fr%2Ftrains%2Fdownload%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D28097&hash=81fb547ca5ef111297bdfe938203c5c01d125f98)
All cut with Robo Craft.
I'll have to agree with Dave, the crispness of the 90° turns isn't what we see from Frederic's machine. Price difference?
"Gaming the machine"? or Tom Foolery.
Welcome HJ (give us a name, we'll use it)
Yeah looks like a much tighter corner is possible. Try also reducing the blade pressure, if possible; just guessing here. I'm thinking drag and friction are going to be major issues issues at the edge of its operating envelope.
Dave
Apparently, Craft Robo costs about 250 euros.
And you have to run it using a software which cost I don't know.
So it's certainly more expensive, and the French forum members in their comments consider it would not be a good solution for a manufacturer since it requires too much care during the cutting process.
But for a modeller with a limited amount of money to invest, it seems a valuable alternative to the much more expensive laser cutters.
Frederic, very interesting thread on the French forum. Will take hours to go through it all. Do you recall if there is any discussion or photos of the Craft Robo's embossing capability? That is one of the more interesting features for my purposes.
Dave
Dave, I don't know what is possible and google doesn"t seem to link to very "optimistic" pages.
But I've asked on the forum what they know about it, and hope I'll get an answer (by the way, it was my first post on this forum...). If you read French, you can follow the topic, and in all cases, I'll watch and tell you if and what they say.
Name is Henry.
I will try gaming and see what happens. The alternative is to clean up the corners with a knife or a file. Even so, the machine saves quite a bit of time and tedious work.
The scale is 1:48
By the way, if you need to translate the text Yahoo's Babel Fish works well for me. One does not have to re-translate when changing pages either.
Henry
Henry, try Walthers Goo (at most hobby shops) for a card to plastic bond. Also, of course, you could use Superglue (CA). Some newer glues have come onto the market, too, and no doubt somebody will suggest one.
I just recently started a similar thread. Interesting results, especially from such basic machines. You can get a (craft robo) "wishblade" in the us for under $200 but they are rather light on power and flexibility. They don't emboss. You have to go up the evolutionary tree for that. The BossKut Gazelle is the cheapest machine that will do that at about $400. Above that your looking at the KNK maxx around $550 to $600 but those machines will cut .020 plastic with some precision,though still intended for Card.
Thom
Hi everybody !
I'm one of the guys joking, but not only, on the french forum.
Some tips about the Crafrobot :
- she (it's name is Crafty and not only a machine) is'nt abble to emboss nothing,
- she cut paper, papercard and other materials till 3/10 mm thick,
- the minimum distance between two cutting lines is 5/10 mm,
- there are three ways to command her : with the included software Robot Master, which allow simple works or by using Adobe Illustrator or Correl Draw and last, by using Inkscape (but I never was abble to do it with my old W2K).
Some pictures next week when I'll be back home.
Typed on my IPad
Here are a few more examples showing various possibilities offered by Craf Robot :
A guardrail (lamination of several sheets)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lrpresse.fr%2Ftrains%2Fdownload%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D43361&hash=389973ff5b8c6f9661f6e4ca010f9ccd64f08232)
(found here : http://www.lrpresse.fr/trains/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42392&start=210#p1076798 )
Tiles :
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lrpresse.fr%2Ftrains%2Fdownload%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D28093&hash=46f6773a6ee4235e1ff93f07e73caba1444c0da7)
(found here : http://www.lrpresse.fr/trains/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42392&start=120#p1036908 )
Car seats :
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lrpresse.fr%2Ftrains%2Fdownload%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D50638&hash=6edd60fb2e4a82e5d53d2a20d61e583db3d3cbe4)
(found here : http://www.lrpresse.fr/trains/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=41174&start=150#p1094009 )
A whole wall (lamination again) :
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lrpresse.fr%2Ftrains%2Fdownload%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D1104&hash=990b74f6b014a97dc489a575c2c506aeba3a184f)
(found here : http://www.lrpresse.fr/trains/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34083&start=195#p966577 )
Trucks for a model of underground car :
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lrpresse.fr%2Ftrains%2Fdownload%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D44004&hash=8e55b603ef6f8f0e35c5e1c9eb7383d0da83e90a)
(found here : http://www.lrpresse.fr/trains/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=46044 )
and finally this piano, part of a project for a module that his author may wish to describe :
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lrpresse.fr%2Ftrains%2Fdownload%2Ffile.php%3Fid%3D17678&hash=c444a1ad46e72055eebd28f077d108d5638db878)
(found here : http://www.lrpresse.fr/trains/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42077 ).
I saw on another forum that sharp corners are also a function of blade angle (or offset)which is a setting on the more sophisticated cutters.
Quote from: hjsullivan on March 16, 2011, 01:21:22 PM
Hello all,
I have attached a few photos and drawings. If I could figure out how to load photos I would do that. Can someone help with uploading photos?
Try this sticky/link:
http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=3.0 (http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=3.0)
Marc
Looking at the results, quality and the prices of these machines I am a bit dissappointed.
For the amount of parts I need , it is cheaper to order parts from Crystal River, Rusty Stumps or in Germany MKB modellbau according to the dimensions I want. I believe Dave will cut also private orders.
Jacq
That has been my feeling, too, Jacq. As I read through the posts and look at the output, lasers seem to do more of what we want. -- Russ
The pix posted so far are of very low end machines in the sub $175 price range. How can you compare that to a $6000+ laser. I'm still waiting to see what the serious tools will do. I have submitted some tough tests and and having them done by people who have experience and know what they are doing with these cutters. as soon as I get the results, I'll share them warts and all.
Thom
I think the examples that Frederic has shown here are quite acceptable for dolls house scales such as I work in (1:24). I have now purchased two not-so-cheap batches of windows for my models from people who make a living from designing and manufacturing them and I was disappointed with the accuracy and quality of cutting. Both batches were from manufacturers using lasers. In a large scale such as 1:24 I had expected quality results as the size of the individual parts are not exactly tiny. Getting bespoke parts cut by laser here in Brisbane is a no-brainer - the majority of laser owners want a preproduction fee of around $88 to check the file before they even start work. When you only want a small batch of windows, that suddenly jumps the price to outrageous instead of just incredibly expensive. I have seen really fine cutting standards here in Brisbane by fellow modellers using a Craft Robo and I think for small quantities that is the better alternative as it sits on the desk next to you. If you want to go the other way, you could always look at this thread (building in 1:76) - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/28293-manchester-central-castlefield-viaducts-modelling-structures/page__st__125 Scroll a fair way down to see the build. All achieved with flat plasticard and a sharp knife with a steady hand.
Okay, I'll wait to see more examples of what these machines can do. But it really isn't a price issue so much as an absolute quality one. I'd rather pay more and get better results but if I can pay less and get the same results it's a no brainer. -- Russ
As an average modeler I wonder how many parts ( windows, etc ) I do need per year. $ 200,- will give me most I think.
Why should I bother about the price of all those machines if I can purchase superb made parts in the quantities and quality I want from specialised small firms ?
Jacq
So far, one thing is for sure, don't order laser cut parts from Artizen's guy in Brisbane! ;D
IMHO these cutting machines are promising. Economics aside, for me the question is, what are the useful operating ranges of materials and thicknesses and finesse? Since they cut with a blade, there is a much smaller operating envelope than a laser. A laser puts no physical stress on the material being cut and engraved, and can make deep cuts in very dense materials.
It would be helpful to see more pictures of results (esp. embossing), since the concepts of "useful" and "good enough" are obviously not the same for everyone. I figure the sweet spot for these tools in the scale model hobby is with RC airplanes. A laser is overkill for cutting repetitive balsa parts.
Dave
I think that the big advantage of a cutter is the ability to cut thin styrene. I prefer styrene over paper. Lasers still leave melting welds that have to be sanded, so that is a big disadvantage of the laser. But the precise cutting of a laser can't be beat.
The examples shown in this thread are clearly below what I would consider finescale standard. I would bet the majority of the people here to cut better windows by hand than having these weird curves.
To Thom's point:
I do believe that the combination of digital cutters and printed paper have a lot of potential. The most important technical requirement would be a perfect registration / alignment of print and cut. The biggest problem with paper models is the cutting and folding process. But if a paper kit is printed on high quality paper with high quality ink (ink fading is a potential longterm problem) and then precisely cut with a digital cutter, I would expect some truly outstanding results.
Dave, Your experience with Vector cut gives you great insight into how similar lasers of different power levels. they might be useful or not.
What can you do with a 5 watt laser?
The low end digital cutters (Circut, Wishblade, etc) are not going to give results that will satisfy a craftsman modeler. The tools I am exploring are in the $400 to $900 range. Specifically the Gazelle (just under $400) (stats below) and the KNK maxx ($550 up). Not cheap but doable for the serious modeler.
this HO coach is made from 7 layers of .02 styrene and was cut on a older KNK
here are the stats for the Gazelle (the stats for the KNK are similar but with 950 grms of force)
Max cut width is 12.125"
Max material width is 13"
Max length is 80"
Cutting speed is .5" to 12"sec. 7 levels
Cutting force is from 100grms to 500grms 7 levels selectable (twice the power of the Craft robo)
Max resolution is 1/1000".1000dpi
Repeatability 0.004"
Max depth is 1mm or .32"
I don't think you will be using these machines to make the beautiful miniature tools that Dave laser etches (Dave does the best laser out there)
but if you want to make a dozen rail cars?
Thom
Aside from material max dimensions, I think you'll find that stats such as you've posted, or comparisons to hypothetical 5w lasers aren't meaningful to most model builders, including me. I'd need to see examples of raw output in styrene and sheet metal / foil, including embossing, to know if its useful to me.
Foil embossing. That's a great idea.
Those cars with the layered styrene are pretty good examples of creative use of styrene. Very nice!
Christian
Dave just made the point I wanted to make.
The problem is that, so far, we can't see what these tools can do. I think $600, while expensive, is still reasonable for a tool that can crank out most of what I want to scratchbuild and I would get much more use from it than from, for example, my superb little drill press. Heck, I would be excited about such a device. But even $5 is too much for a tool that produces disappointing results.
Let's try to curtail the theory and deal with practicality: We need to see good images of appropriate examples of actual work. Until they appear, any meaningful discussion is impossible.
Such a device could be as exciting as 3-D printing but it's a moot point until somebody does what Chuck did and produces the results.
Russ
Dakra gets my business! As long as you are prepared to work in 1:24! ;D
As for spending $600 on a Craft Robo - I think I would get better mileage out of a small desktop CNC machine? Even at $3000 plus it has the potential to do more with a greater range of materials. But then, you only get what you pay for and the Craft Robo was never pitched at the finescale modeller - its market always was and always will be the scrapbooking fraternity who work in a larger scale than we are trying to achieve.
As Russ said, looking forward to see what a creative finescale modeller can achieve with one though.
Here is some insight on similar type cutters:
http://therailwire.net/forum/index.php/topic,23354.0.html
http://therailwire.net/forum/index.php/topic,17191.150.html
So you can do complex stuff with these cutters! There is some nice stuff in those two threads. I would certainly be very happy with those results particularly in 1:160 scale.
But then, I have never described myself as a finescale modeller, just somebody who wants to learn and do better each time. I may comment on this forum but I will never show my work here because it simply does not come up to your standards. And I'm actually happy with that - I model for stress relief and because I actually enjoy it, including all the mistakes. I have never worked out what a rivet is and do I care? Not really, just want to do better each day using techniques I have been shown on forums like this one. My modelling has improved even in the last four months and being given access to threads that show that alternative equipment can produce impressive results is what I want to learn. I can bet that the more complex buildings using a simple cutter take quite a while to cut and finish though!
Just my two cents worth.
I'm visiting forums all over the net. Some are getting interesting results with scribing bricks and boards.The cutter used here is the Silhouette which is around $200.
This is from therailwire.net
In the last couple of months I have done a lot or research on this in preparation for my company, Clever models to begin offering this type of machine to our users.
There are two brands of cutters that are suited to modeling,
that is they have the precision and flexibility. They tend to the high end of available digital die cutters.
the Bosskut Gazelle Is a very capable machine that is generally found in the $400 to $500 range. Unfortunately they seem to be back ordered about 3 months.
The other machine worthy of consideration is the KNK Maxx series. these run from $600 up to $1100 and represent the top of the line. Cutting area is from 13" to 24". Wile 90% of what I do is Card stock these machines do a fine job on thin plastic (.02) and several other materials.
You can get "Circut" die cutters at best buy and craftrobo, wishblade and silhouette are all available under $300. I can't recommend them for modelers. You can't judge all die cutters based on their performance. The Silhouette skirts the edge. It could be useful in limited ways.
If anyone wants specific technical questions answered. please ask.
Thom
When you have time, please show us specific modeling examples of what the two top end cutters can do, especially in direct comparison with a laser if possible. Also please explain how (or whether) you would use them to produce Clever Models kits. -- Russ
What are the software options? I'm interested in buying a good machine, but the last thing I want to do is learn yet another graphics program. Can I print off Adobe?
Dave
Dave, they do have their own software that is includede but you can use Illustrator or Corel draw as well. In my case I need to cut pre-printed material so i have to use their software to add registration marks. If your just cutting and not registering you can use any vector program. I think you would find it similar to your laser in that you are balancing speed and force depending on the material.
Grained materials will be the most difficult because of the structural stability issue. I would think wood might shatter. You can cut styrene up to .02 or thicker in multiple passes.
Thom
PS. Dave for your level of work, I wouldn't even bother looking at anything but the KNK Maxx. Start your research there. If their machines wont do what you want, nothing will. There is a yahoo group "KNK modelers"