For a current build project for a publication (that initally was going to need a larger base/scene), I needed some help and input, someone to bounce ideas off of, someone that would critique and "call" me on errors, or where I was trying to skate by.... as well as, with great fervor/gusto, conduct their own tests and experiments....basically I needed a collaborator.....Gordon was the perfect choice...I knew that if I dangled this subject matter, which I knew would be right up his alley, he would bite....and he did......hook, line and sinker.
From my point of view this was a really fun , constructive process, and sure made me think and experiment. Between the to of us there were some really good results, some that had promise, and some that...well, helped fill the rubbish bin. Regardless, this process/approach, and hashing this subject out with Gordon, was the most fun I have had in model building in a while.
So without further a-doo......Gordon...lets see your stuff (No pressure ;D)
Geez, with a set up like that, we'll be expecting something as impressive and/or entertaining as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFMxafVFgiU
(Eddie Griswold on the Frank Sinatra show, 1951 ... a bit before my time, nevertheless ...)
Now that's entertainment!
MPH
Have seen som real interesting preview pictures. Now just waiting for the "Magic Water" from Unreal Details to be poured and the final result to be photographed and posted here. As Marc said......no pressure! ;)
Anders
With that build up from Marc I nearly bottled this and ran away .............. however it is too good an opportunity to show how anal I can be and bore most of you to death.
I could post the 180+ pictures showing the developments of ideas or 100+ pictures that between Marc and myself we found for reference but have decided even you lot don't deserve that.
So just going to post some examples, some showing how an idea was developed, changed .............. and then headed for the bin ::)
After Marc threw out the bait this was the first test piece, all of them are based on 1/35 scale and average 4" x 3".
This one is only being posted as you will find it interesting to see how Marc took this very rough idea and developed it into a little jewel in his versions
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this one was trying to capture colours, ripple effects in the sand/gravel along with the shape of the banks in a tidal situation .............. it headed for the bin pretty quickly .
Next was an attempt to see if crumbling sand banks could be produced using the fact that ordinary modelling clay tends to crack if heated too quickly to dry it out.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi232.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee275%2Fgfadvance%2FMarch%2520water%2520experiments%2FMarshWaterExper049.jpg&hash=cfb13659eab43f05fbead91ea6d9d9c4e07c669f)
This piece was then developed to try out some different water effects as well as trying out different colours to show dried out sandy banks and fading into damper areas
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different water effects
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The next piece was looking again at the details around the banks of tidal rivers, trying out making water washed stones and yet again searching for effective cour combinations
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Finally , you will be delighted to hear , fairly near where I live salt marshes are pretty common. So this piece was an attempt all be it in a compressed form to see how this could be approached
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Didn't really like this , so went down the mud rather than water look
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Then thought I would try it with some grass, and adding some small amounts of water
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I suppose this last piece helps demonstrate the value of working on small pieces to develop ideas, if it goes wrong it no great loss of time and they can be changed around relatively easily.
I have not gone into the specifics of what was used and how ....... if anybody wants this info just ask and I will try my best to answer.
Anybody who wants their money back over the lack of entertainment please address their concerns to one Mr Reusser ;D
Well, after this lovely show (saw it twice..and happy to have paid the entry fee)....I will definitely not be showing mine, as they are quite sub-par.
Marc, would be better if you voluntarily added your pics ;)
I do have the negatives ;D
I have seen these little experiments in the " flesh" and they are fun bits of modelling . I don't think any of the failures should be binned as they are just as useful to show where things don't go quite right . Basically , so we can learn by your mistakes .
I've been doing it with Marc's stuff for years .
Keep up the good work , Boys .
A possible subject for a little competition ? Build a mini-mini scene in 2 square inches . I reckon ever I could achieve that .
Nick
Oh , and we want a complete SBS on everything you have done . None of this glossing over the subject .
While Gordon was doing the heavy lifting on the various marsh formations, I was focusing on another part (which acnt be shown), but I was interested in experimenting with DAS, and Paper-Clay, to see if these would work for a silty mud type of salt marsh (as you have likely gleened from Gordons varied pieces, there is a great variety of marsh surfaces).
Both our experiments were built-up on a substrate of the dense insulation foam.
This image shows the raw base shape at left, and one that has been contoured with the DAS on the right.
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The same was done on the left piece, but this was coveredusing PaperClay. This photo shows a closeup comparison of the surfaces.
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Next some sifted sand and small pebbles were added to the upper portions of the bank. these were attached using Liquitex matte medium, and when dry, weeded of odd looking rocks, and blended/eased in quantity towards the lower refion, using a stiff brush to remove the pebbles and sand.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages58.fotki.com%2Fv506%2Fphotos%2F2%2F921732%2F11392007%2Fphoto-vi.jpg&hash=12f1bda85578144715373c5ee843db098750b3a8)
Bothe bases were then given a mottled airbrush coating of Tamiya colors, and a brush wash of AK "Earth Effects".
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There is a lot wrong with this scene, but it did show me what I was after...the surface texture of the Paperclay.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages14.fotki.com%2Fv380%2Fphotos%2F2%2F921732%2F11392007%2Fphoto-vi.jpg&hash=41cdc7ff42f65073d0f1e145ed68a9a96e135b6d)
....and same goes for this one...but it shows the texture of the DAS.
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Some more/stronger coloring and tonal variations of the groundwork/silt/mud, in the above image would really help visually make the mud more interesting; however, this is where which prototype one chooses is paramount...as is the time of tide/wetness (casuing the silt to be more or less monochromatic/homogenous) ...and then, how much artistic interpretation does one put into it?
Great stuff!
Great to see all these pictures from both of you guys.....looks very promising! Will there be a complete diorama finished in time for the show in Heiden, Germany?
Anders
Interesting to see two projects develop.
What are you guys using for water?
Kind of hard to tell but have you eliminated the dreaded "creep" due to surface tension? It does not look like you have in your last picture with the post/pipe.
-Mj
Lots of interesting experimentation going on here. I thought you might like some pics of a salt marsh near here. Most of this is submerged at high tide (we average about 10 foot tides on this part of the coast). This grass was collected and baled for use in erosion and sedimentation control on construction sites at one time but the environmental impact makes it illegal now (coastal erosion and loss of habitat).
Marty, sorry have not looked at this thread for a while .... will post details of the different types of "water" I have tried later , and you are right the creep factor is still very difficult to control.
Trying at the moment to complete a finished piece based on some of the learning ........ should be a an old rusty boat have sunk into a grass salt marsh , at the moment one side has been maybe 70% painted and the interior has been started , the inside is planned to be silted up probable with some grass growing in it as well
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi232.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee275%2Fgfadvance%2FRustyBoatMarsh%2FBOATinMarsh052.jpg&hash=3e30b15e3e7d9b04266ba6281ad32bc01bb9038e)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi232.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee275%2Fgfadvance%2FRustyBoatMarsh%2FBOATinMarsh053.jpg&hash=bc569a97b692c04478e1b32aae8c0512d18d7fb9)
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its a working base/cradle its sitting on but that is the planned angle of sit and the real base will probably only be fractionally bigger
What the hell!?.....beautifully done hull...great little scene. I am as green as your base, with envy (and curiosity).
Quote from: marc_reusser on December 26, 2012, 02:29:58 PM
What the hell!?.....beautifully done hull...great little scene. I am as green as your base, with envy (and curiosity).
Yeah , like you couldn't do something similar if you were in the mood to " feel it , man " !
Gordon ,
Great looking rusty hulk . Looking forward to seeing the scene completed when I visit you next . I reckon it would compliment Marc's wooden wreck nicely when you display them together in Germany next year !
Nick
QuoteYeah , like you couldn't do something similar if you were in the mood to " feel it , man " !
Mmmm...not really....maybe technically, but Gordon has that "Artistry" that that makes it.
Looks real good! But it will never float!
-Marty
That looks terrific! I'm curious how you got the metal to look so corroded?
Ditto. -- Russ
Quote from: marc_reusser on December 26, 2012, 03:28:40 PM
QuoteYeah , like you couldn't do something similar if you were in the mood to " feel it , man " !
Mmmm...not really....maybe technically, but Gordon has that "Artistry" that that makes it.
Sorry , Old Bean , but I will not accept that statement . You have amply demonstrated your ability to make models like this . With , or without , added " artistry" .
Stupendous job Gordon - absolutely amazing. You really have been hiding your light under some kind of bushel lately. Like most everyone else I'm all agog to hear how this was done, and equally something as simple as where did you "get the/make the" boat hull in the first place? I've a dozen ideas flatlined for want of a small dingy hull.
Once again - Fantastic job.
Whoa, wow and another ditto on how'd-ja do it? (The flaky, corroding metal ... started with? Then did what?) Sure as heck suited to the marsh setting. Nice! -- Dallas
Rot and corrosion at its best - looks like the underside of a Ford Cortina I once owned !
lovely inspirational work
Barney
Thanks for the positive feedback.
Will attempt to give some info on the rust ;-
The origonal resin boat shell was detailed with plastic strip after some pretty radical thinning with the old dremel and grinding bit
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The shell was then given a mix of various rust shades using Tamiya paints and sealed with a light spray of dull-coat ..... this was just to provide a hard wearing base . Because my reference photos showed that under salt water rusting the metal showed serious corrosion , delamination of the metal + bubbling under the paint decided I had to add some texture. This was done by fixing some fine sand around the main rust areas
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi232.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee275%2Fgfadvance%2FRustyBoatMarsh%2FBOATinMarsh022.jpg&hash=ecde312c3c6e87b5867ab49f31001c84e1040a51)
this additional texture was then used to hold the rust pigments which were then added and held in place with fixer, then a couple of coats of hair spray were applied before some colour was sprayed on.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi232.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee275%2Fgfadvance%2FRustyBoatMarsh%2FBOATinMarsh036.jpg&hash=d61acf54c653c93adcb65d846e61c111126f1ed6)
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After the majority of the paint was removed with water and stiff brushes, a light dusting of assorted pigments were added and finally a thinned mix of MIG rust oil paints were wicked into the rust pigments.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi232.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee275%2Fgfadvance%2FRustyBoatMarsh%2FBOATinMarsh035.jpg&hash=48d5486631a3f352386ba2de55c1b90fc8e96b02)
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Hope this helps
That looks like crap! In a really good way. Brilliant job of it. ;) -- Dallas
Good SBS.
I wonder if you made a wooden hull shape (former) and the brushed on several coats of resin if it would also be a good starting point?
-Marty
Marty , think it would have been a better starting point than the way I approached it.
I did toy with the idea, and really wish I had, of using the resin hull I had as the former and vacuum forming a new hull from plastic card which would have made a much better representation of the origonal metal hull.
Marc sent me a lot of reference pictures when we were experimenting and there are a number of planked hulls that I might do in the future (not now or for a few years Marc ;) ) ......... and using a thin plastic shell and planking inside and out with paper would give a pretty close approximation to scale thickness
That little SBS is worth publishing. -- Russ
Quote from: finescalerr on December 28, 2012, 03:03:30 PM
That little SBS is worth publishing. -- Russ
If only there were a half decent magazine around that could do it justice . Any suggestions , anyone ?
Nick, go stand in the corner. And don't come out until next year. -- ssuR
Quote from: shropshire lad on December 28, 2012, 03:58:23 PM
Quote from: finescalerr on December 28, 2012, 03:03:30 PM
That little SBS is worth publishing. -- Russ
If only there were a half decent magazine around that could do it justice . Any suggestions , anyone ?
Yeah, too bad Russ publishes "books" and not a magazine.
As Andi has been"nicely stirring the pot" elswhere here is a little taster .... it also lets me check something else ;)
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Like the rusted hull look but that rudder is way too nice and clean. I think it should be really rotted and there should be very little of it left if it were to match the hull rust.
Quote from: 5thwheel on January 06, 2013, 03:33:03 PM
Like the rusted hull look but that rudder is way too nice and clean. I think it should be really rotted and there should be very little of it left if it were to match the hull rust.
I have to agree with Bill here; looks like somone recently purchased this and stuck it on. Also...don't forget the bolt heads securing the strapping to through the wood....or if rotted and missing wood...the loose exposed bolt shaft, or the hole in the strap where it used to be.
Bill, Marc, thanks and I agree !
In my defence this was part of an e-mail I had sent to someone ;) yesterday
"Cruelly blown up , need to replace that bit of wood on the gunwale, that kink its driving me nuts ............ early days for the rudder"
Boy...tough audience....slack off for a day, and get keel-hauled. ;D ;D
Just for that.....your seats planks need weathering too. :P ;D ;D
To me its ultimate rust and grot - did I here the word "finish"
Barney
Barney ,absolutely no need to use the F word around here , some of us are still under sixty so have not heard of that sort of language before.
Now, I played around with existing rudder to see how decrepit I could make it ......... ended liking the colouring but grain/wear a bit out of the Walt Disney book so it will get changed.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi232.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee275%2Fgfadvance%2FRustyBoatMarsh%2FBOATinMarsh113.jpg&hash=907f493c78865a45d9884c32931b429cad48f639).
on my monitor that image is about 4 times actual size and close up reveals more work to be done on rust around stern post
I expect to see Johnny Depp peering around the rudder any minute. ;D ;D
You guys have chosen a very difficult subject and I am amazed by the result. Excellent work!
OK, Mk II rudder
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I have found it challenging, to balance a more accurate representation with the want to emphasise the message of "rot". This one still has a feel(slight?) of caricature but I hope still stays on the side of scale representation.
I have no doubts I will be told one way or the other :)
Gordon, My thoughts on the wood rudder is this ;)...being the boat is so rotten there should be no wood LEFT. Just model the metal that held all the wood together.
Quote from: Mobilgas on January 08, 2013, 05:22:49 PM
Gordon, My thoughts on the wood rudder is this ;)...being the boat is so rotten there should be no wood LEFT. Just model the metal that held all the wood together.
I would say that is a moot point . I reckon it would take longer for a hardwood rudder to rot than the metalwork to rust .
Totally unscientific opinion with no evidence to back it up so probably wrong . But I just felt like arguing with you !
Nick
If you do yet another rudder à la Craig's idea, I would think it would have a few remnants of bleached out wood with perhaps a few dabs of green paint (for instance, adjacent to the metalwork). I suppose we could nitpick almost any model to death but I like what you've done very much. Proceed at your own peril. -- Russ
Shucks ................... it is a tough audience
After months, seriously, of trying to find a way to do old wood which satisfies me and then thinking I was getting in touching distance ......
Now you don't want wood !
Think I might sulk ;D
Well ..... I'm stuck between two stools here!!
On the one hand I've finally solved my ongoing computer problems with an all singing new 24" Monitor!! - It's like being at the flicks it's so good. And clarity - WOW!
So I can now see exactly how crap everything is - except it still isn't: and this is where I hit the second stool. I happen to think what Gordon's achieved is bloody marvellous. Yes, I know on here we/you all pride ourselves on being honest and not just dribbling sycophants. But, c'mon: the guy is trying really, really - bloody hard to appease and impress you lot.
He's modelling out of his skin and at the limits of his understanding here - yes I know it will do him the power of good in the end but a big hug wouldn't go amiss every now and then.
Also ...... ! There's that thorny little phenomenon called "expression". I've seen so many people trying to bestow the title "Art" onto modelling - without giving much thought to what Art actually is - and to what the piece might potentially be alluding too!
And I'm not saying this is a piece of Art elect, but one must at some point consider the emotional impetus of its creation ... "the learning curve" in this instance.
In short ------------- Give the guy a break for Chris'sakes!!
{Tongue ... obviously,and firmly - embedded].
A bit of wood and metal if its any help for you Gordon - I think Humbrol must have been used !!
Barney
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages55.fotki.com%2Fv585%2Fphotos%2F2%2F1908522%2F10769264%2Fphoto-vi.jpg&hash=7a5847fc0ead65ce7cd75c671d6d1d213474b120) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/junk--rust/wood-rust-2-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages50.fotki.com%2Fv1523%2Fphotos%2F2%2F1908522%2F10769264%2Fphoto-vi.jpg&hash=64fe6e311a71e5ab42929abbe1851a948a0ca6ae) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/junk--rust/wood-rust-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)
Thanks Andi, but don't worry I am more than big enough to come back fighting ........ And I was only kidding !!
Now I am off to think about what could be one of the greatest back-hand compliments I ever received
" and at the limits of his understanding here"
:D :D :D
Gordon, the rusting is super and my choice would have been for the first decrepit rudder.
I liked the fact that it was so badly deteriorated as opposed to the last choice.
And then some added weathering as Uncle suggested.
Very nice.
Quote from: gfadvance on January 07, 2013, 03:04:24 PM
Barney ,absolutely no need to use the F word around here , some of us are still under sixty so have not heard of that sort of language before.
Now, I played around with existing rudder to see how decrepit I could make it ......... ended liking the colouring but grain/wear a bit out of the Walt Disney book so it will get changed.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi232.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee275%2Fgfadvance%2FRustyBoatMarsh%2FBOATinMarsh113.jpg&hash=907f493c78865a45d9884c32931b429cad48f639).
on my monitor that image is about 4 times actual size and close up reveals more work to be done on rust around stern post
Actually I think this looks pretty good except I think you are in love with the tiller and top of the rudder. They are too nicer and clean when I think they should be rotted off. How about adding some barnacles or a cluster of mussels?
Quote from: gfadvance on January 09, 2013, 03:07:28 AM
Thanks Andi, but don't worry I am more than big enough to come back fighting ........ And I was only kidding !!
Now I am off to think about what could be one of the greatest back-hand compliments I ever received
" and at the limits of his understanding here"
:D :D :D
Hey , Gordon , why do you think none of the rest of us post photos of what we are doing !
For what it is worth I think your rudder looks fine .It just needs some finishing touches .
Nick
Funny how things decay in the salt water. I've seen wood last for years and fall apart when all the metal fittings and nails simply dissolve. And I've seen piles of metal with the wood completely gone. All that said, the rudder looks just perfect to me. And please don't put muscles on it, use mussels instead.
I might as well toss in my own two cents. Keep in mind that maritime subjects are not my area of expertise...
1. I think it looks pretty good as is.
2. Whether or not the upper portions of the rudder should be more rotted, would depend on how high the water gets, wouldn't it? Does the tide periodically submerge it entirely, or only partway?
Hi Gordon, for what it's worth, I think that colour is wrong. the green just doesn't look right. Given that the hull is as rusted as it is, I would suspect that the wood would have bleached by now, given that most of the paint would have flaked off, the sun would bleach what remains to a faded pale whitish colour whatever the wood.
Michael
Hi Gordon
I think the picture below shows your heading in the right direction with this.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3091%2F3091145822_925e3f1528.jpg&hash=0234f605ea9e5c1a35a61cd96ffc088c0aa242ea)
That photo is spot on for what I see down by the water here Wesley.