The MIG Forum has a new "Challenge" going that started this weekend, titled "Rusty knocked out and/or abandoned Vehicles". the empasis is obviously on the painting and finish, and I wanted to try something new and different.
This will be a concurrent SBS thread with the one there.
...I have never built a ship, and know nothing about them....but have always been fascinated with these rusting hulks and clutter. Here are some links to photos that will be the inspiration for this project.
http://carlosarguelles.smugmug.com/gallery/4746763_s46dP/1/285077781_AwvMN#285051729_s6V2p (http://carlosarguelles.smugmug.com/gallery/4746763_s46dP/1/285077781_AwvMN#285051729_s6V2p)
http://worldwidetraveler.smugmug.com/photos/53649802_riFRY-L.jpg (http://worldwidetraveler.smugmug.com/photos/53649802_riFRY-L.jpg)
http://www.opacity.us/gallery87_wrecks.htm (http://www.opacity.us/gallery87_wrecks.htm)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm2.static.flickr.com%2F1419%2F1429999240_a386103892.jpg&hash=48aada05408138a5978932cf55389440ff195a19)
Scale for my project has not been determined....but will likely be somewhere between 1/64 and 1/87...sizes that I am not used to working in or visualizing.
The first step for me was to modify and rough prep the model kit hulls that will be used: The red hull on the left is the from a 1:108-scale Revell tugboat kit; the white hull is from a 1:400-scale Revell Titanic kit.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FRevell_Titanic.jpg&hash=c545cb7bc066bfd6771344b60dce0998089f6a31) (https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FRevell_Tug.jpg&hash=ef9d6cc8fe4cf133ad90235c4178adcda4b90e8e)
The red hull will become a steel hulled boat, while the white hull will be a wood boat with metal trim, fittings & superstructure.
The tugboat hull was assembled as per the kit. When dry the hull was sanded down on a disk sander to give the proper depth in the water, and list to one side. A shaped piece of .040" styrene sheet was attached to the bottom, to provide stability, and to prevent the future cast water from running into the hull.
On the white hull, only the sides were used a new wider, and reshaped sub deck, and underside were made from .060" styrene
Now that I have a basic idea of how they will sit in relation to eachother, I will be better able to decide on a scale, and how to detail them. The finished scene will likely be around 10" x 11".
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FMR_WG1.jpg&hash=82d9bece5cc1fbacc868af05941d830f3733ae08)
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This will likely be a long SBS...hope you don't get bored.
Marc
This will be anything but boring and I look forward to every post. Nonetheless you're nuts. -- Russ
Marc,
the underwater part of red hull will be touching the underwater part of the white hull.
Are both ships sunk/ grounded or is one salvaging?
Take with the layout and position of the hulls the non visible underwater items in account.
When you have questions ask. I am looking forward seeing this grow.
Jacq
Here a nice site with a lot of interesting details, particullary the colour photo's:
http://oboylephoto.com/boatyard/index.htm (http://oboylephoto.com/boatyard/index.htm)
Not as moody, but showing some interesting wrecks:
http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ekudos.nl/artikel/image/86246.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ekudos.nl/artikel/86246/spectaculaire_scheepswrakken&usg=__WSL3gusP6p-NxBN1vSUi1dMdSJA=&h=64&w=64&sz=2&hl=nl&start=171&um=1&tbnid=7hdWTh4Yiu4trM:&tbnh=64&tbnw=64&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dscheepswrakken%26start%3D160%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN (http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ekudos.nl/artikel/image/86246.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ekudos.nl/artikel/86246/spectaculaire_scheepswrakken&usg=__WSL3gusP6p-NxBN1vSUi1dMdSJA=&h=64&w=64&sz=2&hl=nl&start=171&um=1&tbnid=7hdWTh4Yiu4trM:&tbnh=64&tbnw=64&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dscheepswrakken%26start%3D160%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN)
Jacq
Jacq,
Thanks for the Links/Sites. the top one I had already bookmarked.
Yes, both boats are sunk/sinking and abandoned. My intent was to show that the white hull boat has been there far longer and is in a much worse state of decay....the red hulled boat will be modeled after the one in the bottom/photo in my initial post.....just not as submerged......The idea was that it had drifted against/onto the submerged sunken white hull, and come to rest there.
I will take you up on some insight and help with the Naval Architecture...
Looking at the photo in my initial post....and considering a boat of this type and of this period (+/- 1920-35):
How high are Gunwales(?) and railings on this type size of craft?
How tall would the individual superstructure tiers be on something like this this? (IE. cabin interior head-room)
How thick would the metal be at the hull and gunwales.
Do all watertight doors open outward?
Thanks....
Marc
Marc,
I'll prepare some sketches / drawings with scantling information today.
WT Doors always turn outward.
Headroom in smaller boats is generally 6'3", deckgirders approx 6" pending span and framing approx 2,5" - 3" angle on a 2'0" spacing. Miimum plating 0,25". See coming plans.
The wreck on the photo is not as old as you think. The hull appears to be a prewar construction, the wheelhouse definetely is of a lot later date. It is a fully welded construction with a roofoverhang that was in vogue in the 70's. I can't discover any rivets.
Jacq
Jacq,
Thank you for the informmation. Please don't go to soo much trouble. Though very much appreciated, a good amount of this project will be "implied" rathere than 100% accurate....as you can alreaddy see by the use of available hulls. I have a tight timeline on these (between when the contest ends, and what this years work load so far will allow.)
I really am primarily trying to capture enough detail to properly and believeably convey the feel and appearance of boats that are in the same condition as in the images. I also want to add enough small detail to provide visual depth, shadows, interest, and plenty of pplaces for the weathering to take hold.
...interesting on the age...they looked a lot older to me....I guess the sea works quickly. Yes, the one in the image is a welded hull...I will be trying to replicate that. I will probably use sections of .006mm lead foil to represent this. If it is applied over an uneven base surface, it gives the appearance/feel of the bent and buckled hull like in the image (I need to conduct a final painted test of this ...but seems to do ok in the rough-up)
A couple of more questions if not a problem.:
For the metal hulled boat. How wide are deck plates for something like this?...and I assume that they would run crosswise and be installed in a staggered manner?
On wood hulled boats of this size what are a typical/common hull planking width, and deck planking width?
Lastly... What happens on both hulls, at the transition of the deck yo the hull?.....On the wood boat, does that havey beam just run from fore to aft around the hul edge and the planking die into the inside of it? both flush with eachother at the top.
Thanks Again,
Marc
Marc,
deckplating is laid longitudinal with the deck stringer plating as the thickest plate.
In this size boats approx 30"to 40" x .40" and 12'0" long.
The other deckplating width to suit openings with a thickness of .26"t0 .28"
http://www.shf.org.au/JO-objects/JO-1927-drawings.html (http://www.shf.org.au/JO-objects/JO-1927-drawings.html)
This is a link to some old drawings.
The scantlings of this vessel are representative for the ones you are doing, It is a rivetted construction.
For a welded construction the inside of the plating is the measurement side. The frames do not need to be joggled this way making building very easy. Plate sizes are normally governed by the handling capacity at the yard and the curvatures of the location on the hull.
Have a good look at the shell expansion as it showes the standard lay out of plating. Replace the overlaps with welding seams and you get a good idea of how the plating is arranged.
The upper deck plan does show the plating arrangement around openings.
The ventilation plan shows plenty of details.
Normally the height of the wheelhouse is headroom + structure + 8" to 10" raised floor to accomodate equipment and cabling.
As a comparisson here the construction details of a wooden boat.
http://www.mothershipadventures.com/Columbia_III/ColumbiaHistory.htm (http://www.mothershipadventures.com/Columbia_III/ColumbiaHistory.htm)
Jacq
Hey Marc,
Before you go sailing off (or steaming off) across the big blue ocean.
Whatever happened to the 1/35 Gas Mechanical you were working on? Just curious.
Well the ship building should be interesting.
Jerry
Quote from: marc_reusser on January 19, 2009, 12:54:42 AM
The MIG Forum has a new "Challenge" going that started this weekend, titled "Rusty knocked out and/or abandoned Vehicles". the empasis is obviously on the painting and finish, and I wanted to try something new and different.
Great idea!
Looking forward to see your contribution progressing.
But I often get this error message when trying to visit the Mig forums:
"phpBB : Critical Error
Could not query config information
DEBUG MODE
SQL Error : Invalid object name 'migforum_config'.
SELECT * FROM migforum_config
Line : 219
File : common.php"
Anybody else having problems?
Regards, Hauk.
Jacq:
Thanks again. Two sites with great information. I will print it out and go through it over the weekend...and may have a few more questions then if that is okay. No modeling for the next few days...in the middle of a multi-day photo shoot, and am lucky just to get home, eat something and find my way to the bed.
Jerry:
The 1/35 Gas Meech is not dead...it's in the chipping and weathering phase...something I need to be in the right frame of mind for....but it is still a "cuurent" in progress work. I just need to get these two boats built so I don't run out of time for the painting at the end.
Hauk:
That used to be an old problem with the forum, but since the forum has been moved to the new server and provider, as well as using a new forum type/SMF(?)....you should not be getting this problem. I haven't had it occur or heard of it since. You might have the old forum link stored; below is the new one. Note: some of the sections will not be visible available as non-registerd user; If you were registered previously, your registration is/should still be active.
http://www.migproductionsforums.com/phpBB3/ (http://www.migproductionsforums.com/phpBB3/)
Marc
Hi Marc,
don't know if these pics are any use but when I saw this ship last year just off the Oregon coast I took loads of snaps for a potential modelling project.
Looking forward to seeing your progress on this one.
Regards
James
Quote from: marc_reusser on January 21, 2009, 12:00:52 AM
That used to be an old problem with the forum, but since the forum has been moved to the new server and provider, as well as using a new forum type/SMF(?)....you should not be getting this problem. I haven't had it occur or heard of it since. You might have the old forum link stored; below is the new one. Note: some of the sections will not be visible available as non-registerd user; If you were registered previously, your registration is/should still be active.
http://www.migproductionsforums.com/phpBB3/ (http://www.migproductionsforums.com/phpBB3/)
Thanks! That was the problem.
Hi James ,
Glad to see you around this neck of the woods , you should fit in well , being the superior type of modeller that you are. So are you going to enter either or both of the competitions ( the other being Russ's ) ? I'm sure you could knock up something over a couple of weekends !
Are you going to have a go at building the boat in your picture ? It would finally give a use for that bottle of Day-Glo green you bought all those years ago . If you haven't kept it you can always borrow mine !
See you at Shepton Mallet next month?
Nick
James:
Welcome to the forum.
Thanks for the two photos some very good information and inspiration to be gleened from them.
Hauk:
Glad it worked hope to see you there as well.
Marc
Marc,
you're welcome.
Here another nice amount of photo's with a lot of details.
http://www.marielorenz.com/pages/trip8.htm (http://www.marielorenz.com/pages/trip8.htm)
Jacq
Thanks Jacq. Much appreciated.
The first step now was to tackle the wood hull, as I need to have the wooden parts completed, so that the metal parts can be applied on top of the wood.
Most of the detail was sanded off the Titanic hull, but that which remained, was filled with putty, and sanded smooth.
The deck and hull needed to be clad using Individual basswood strips. After sanding, and removing the "fuzz", each strip wood strip/piece received multiple stainings of Builders in Scale "Silverwood"; light wipings (using a rag) of diluted Guache colors; and brushed on pigments, that were then soaked/blended into the wood using Isoprpyl alcohol applied with a brush....all applied in varying combinations.
The deck needed to be clad first, so that the planks (O scale 1x4 From Mt Albert.) could be cleanly/neatly trimmed to the deck/hull edge. Trimming was done using an xacto for the rough cut, and a disk sander for the final sanding/shaping.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FWG_03.jpg&hash=0b4baa93effd58a354e248bb90cb701bcbace7d8)
The hull sides came next. These were also clad with indivudal strips (slightly wider ones than the deck....HO-Scale 2x10 from Mt Albert). The hull sides also have "bumper strips" (for lack of the proper term) that needed to be applied along the upper edge, and down near the water line. These were made of larger wood strips, and needed to be pre-formed/bent, in order to be easier to attach, and stay attached. A template of the deck was made from .060" stryrene, the strips were soaked in hot water, and then clamped/formed around the edge of the template. When dry, the strips were left clamped, and stained while on affixed to the template.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FWG_04.jpg&hash=e44818644bdef52708bd37b9a050bf33811a82e1)
Before application, each hull strip also received a random dabbing of Floquil "Driftwood", using a very frayed and coarse rag. The light wood area towards the front is where the planks were sanded smooth in order to accomodate the steel plates/cladding that will be applied there.
[sorry about the color variation on these images...and some of the focus issues.....for some resaon it just was coming out wierd..the true color is somewhere in-between]
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FWG_07.jpg&hash=6d4da0ec3dc6b59a8d25027d63ecfdbc3ef40b99)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FWG_05.jpg&hash=1109cb29a3672ee2d57e11afd06d8a36e1641972)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FWG_06.jpg&hash=31ecf48f2b024bad48e0f3edf67a865828bf3489)
Marc
Marc,
put a little green ( algea) in the colours tuo apply to the wood, particullary near the waterline/ tidal range.
This is coming along nicely.
Jacq
Thanks Jacq,
At the wood parts I will actually be adding a "ring"/line around the bottom of the hull, and onto the deck surface that indicates high water mark. I plan on using a combination of geens, balck, and transparent dark colors for this. I will likely also try to represent some algae above the line with a light green fogging or pastel powder, and also some growing algae using something like very fine scenery foam. At the rust parts the line will be shown as a darker rust tone, and a hazing of white above it. Both will require a bit of experimenting.
The hard part for me in this scale is not overdoing the grains and textures on all the stuff, otherwise it becomes too much of a caricature......many of the techniques I use for 1/48 and 1/35 don't work here...or need to be adapted for finer results.
Marc
Marc nice work, the rusted parts will look good next to the gray wood. Looking forward to see how you do the water.
Gordon Birrell
Thanks Gordon,
The water is something that is weighing on me. I need it to be sort of a murkey green-brownish color. I need to find something that is very viscous, (I need to pour at least 1/8" deep) and will not "climb" up the items placed in it, nor will it have surface tension..... Part of me is thinking of using Liquitex Gloss medium....problem with that is the thickness.....maybe just use it for the finish layer and add some surface texture.
Jacq.
I have been trying to find some examples of old simple windlass like would be on these type of boats, and have not had much success....but what has started to bother/confound me while doing this.......where does the anchor chain go??....does it just lay on the deck...does it go through a hole in the deck to an "anchor chain compartment".....and how big/thick of a chain would these types of vessels have?
thanks,
Marc
I can't believe it already looks as good as it does. -- Russ
Marc,
The chain goes, coming from the hawse pipe goes via the winch/capstan through the spill pipe into the chain locker. This is a "room" in front of the collission bulkhead where the specified chain length must be stored.
Look in Wikipedia under "anchor windlass" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_windlass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_windlass)
It gives also a nice description where "the bitter end" comes from.
here a link to a lot of drawings for a "collin archer" type wooden yacht.
http://www.sv-galena.com/WOM/index.html (http://www.sv-galena.com/WOM/index.html)
Particullary drwg 87- 88 -98 -99 are of interest as they show very well common practice for smaller vessels.
I'll also check my uni lecture notes about this item as it is covered by a lot of regulations.
Jacq
When you are ready to start on the water, let me know.
Are you going to finish it as an H0 scale diorama?
Jacq
Thanks again Jacq.
The scale I am building in is actually 1/64 (S-scale). I will be making a small dio with the ships and some other details....probably about 30cm square.
I needed to switch over to the metal hull boat to get it moving, so I spent about 5 hours on it last night.
The top of the hull needed to be in-filled to accomodate the proposed superstructure, and deck plating. While that was setting up I also did a quich test piece for the deck plating.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FWG_08.jpg&hash=602df573f523535db2e659298503c141c2f1da70)
Here the new deck plating and weld seam material has been laminated to the patched model. The plating is made of .010" styrene, with .04mm (.015") styrene rod placed between it.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FWG_09.jpg&hash=780031a28acdfeb00be116bb45ada69259d5737f)
When dry/cured the excess is neatly trimmed and sanded to match the hull sides.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FWG_10.jpg&hash=81b0c66d5607aad078bc82ea0e691c8b76e1023c)
To create the appearance of the weld seam I used a Mission Models 1mm rounded chisel, the styrene rod strips which portrude above the surface of the adjacent plates, are carefully "sliced"/sculpeted...the resulting surface is then softened with a brush application of liquid solvent.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FWG_11.jpg&hash=ced389440c66580348f36ee80204e3891694ef23)
Marc
Marc,
that looks very very good, especially the position of the seams is very convincing.
It will be easy to add doubler plates i.w.o. hawse pipe,bollards and opening corners.
Round of the corners of the large deck opening and add on each corner a doubler plate to reduce crack forming.
These plates are added for local stress relieve.
This was one of the reasons why Liberty ships broke up suddenly as in the hurry to produce as much as possible tonnage, this was ignored on hull transitions and hold openings.
Jacq
Thanks Jacq....it was pure gueswork and aesthetics.
I was thinking of foregoing the awse pipe on this smaller boat (I noticed in photos that many did not have one...and many didn't enen seem to have an anchor chain hole/location.) I wanted to save the winch detailing for the larger boat. I noticed thet many of these smaller boats had bollards that raised above the railing, set on solid stell "boxes" for lack of a better (word). Attached below is sort of what I was thinking for this boat....of course whether it would be correct is a whole different matter :-\ ::) ;D ;D [Please tell me if I am off, or something is missing]
BTW. this boat is a scale 13'-6" wide x 46' long, and the superstructure (wheelhouse and rear cabin area) will be about 6' x 16'.
Thanks for the info on the stress issues....had not considered that. How large a plate is used for the double plating at the superstructure...is this a plate that basically wraps the corner, and is merly welded on top of the existing deck plates? The opening in the hull will not be seen in the final model, so I think I will be ok with the square...thanks though for the heads-up...good to know. (interestingly I have to deal with these same /sim stress issues in my work...I just didn't think of transferring them to this....DOH! ::)......)
Marc
Marc,
for a boat this size, 1 capstan with deck/bulwark mounted fairlead is sufficient.
A doubler will be here 18" x 0,28" and is as you stated a plate welded on top. Smaller ones 6" wide are often put under the bulwark ( closed railing) stiffeners.
An interesting item not often seen are the scuppers ( drainholes from deck to hull ). These are normally a pain in the a*** as these are not maintained often, get clogged and are starting points of corrosion resulting in red rust ( structural weakening corrosion) These are spaced along the closed bulwark appox 6'0" to 8'0"
Bollards are often put higher on the bulwark and enclosed to prevent snagging. The forces are directed to the main structure of the hull.
An interesting observation: I noticed a corrosion starts faster on points that are subject to higher stress than the rest of the structure.
Jacq
I went back through my photo files and archives, and found a solution for this boat that may work, and differenciate it more from the larger boat. (See attached Photos)......these boats seem to simply have a pair of raised bollards on the fore deck, and one on the top of the bow(?)....any opinion. Can the one on the top of the bow be ommited in favor for one of those inward bent poles (flagpole?/rigging-pole?)?...or can there be both?
Approx how big are scuppers through the deck into the hull...(I always thought scuppers drained to the outside....is the water then pumped out via the Bilge pump?).....and, do the scuppers sit in, or outside of, the 6" double plating along the rail base?
Marc
Marc,
sorry I wasn't clear, scuppers drain to the outside.
You need at least 1 capstan ( see the third boat in the last picture ) and a fairlead to take care of the anchor chain / wire and an anchor ( mandatory) .
Anchor approx 75 -100 lbs
Chain 1/2" - 5/8"
Manilla 3/4" - 1"
Anchor chain 360'0" to 400'0" pending average waterdepth with 20% chain and 80% manilla.
For fishing vessels, tugs and workboats more chain, often 100%.
Equipment, anchors and chain + screwed on parts ( brass, etc.) are the first parts dissappearing after a ship is abandonded.
Jacq
Thanks. Thanks for the sketch also.
I understand the issue with the capstan/anchor combo.......but then what is going on with the two boats in the foreground...and the ones in the other photos, where there are no capstans....and what looks like no anchors.?
Marc
Marc,
The gray wood effect is perfect!
Marc,
Quotebut then what is going on with the two boats in the foreground...and the ones in the other photos, where there are no capstans....and what looks like no anchors.
The boats in question are actually only the two + possibly a third boat. The size of the very large double bollard with cross member indicates these boats were tugs. A couple of photo's on the site show the starboard side and one of these boats do show a metal plate over the timber with a hawse pipe. The boat with the anchor windlass is actually an old fire fighting boat with one of the monitors still in place ( behind the windlass)
As these are local vessels, they might not have been built according to classification rule or federal requirements Still very weird not having anchors.
The largest part of the photo's is covering these three boats. Very often anchors, chain and working deck machinery were the first parts to be "salvaged" as they can be re-used.
Jacq
Franck: Thanks. Nice to see you back here.
Jacq: OK....lets see if this works. Is the allignment/arrangement of the items in the attached image correct? Thanks.
Marc
I found these pics of a danube barge in my files.....Kind of like the wheelhouse and low cabin Shape & design....thinking of maybe doing an adaptation of this for the small (steel hulled boat).
Marc,
the last set up is best suited for the size boat you have. Round of the corners of the doublers ( hard spots)
If you are looking for a lower wheelhouse have a look at these purse seiners.
The mast and derricks ( booms) in bended/ broken/ leaning over can give some nice effects on the diorama set up.
You are aware that the wheelhouse on the Danube barge is on the rear, sitting directly over the rudder quadrant?
Jacq
Hallo Marc,
Wilkommen zum Foren.
Danke fuer den Lob. Hoffentlich wird es am ende was.
Ist wirklich gut dich hier zu sehen. Hoffentlich zeigst du einige deiner projekte. Was hast du momentan unterwegs?
Mach dir keine sorgen wegen dem English...wie mann sagt, "Ein Bild ist ein tausend Worte wert". ;) (und wenn du willst kann ich immer uebersetzen. [Du musst nur hoffen das ich nicht irgend ein Mist schreibe ;) ;D ;D]
Bern...ein Bier am alten Tramdepot, oder Egli beim See in Biel waere noch gerade shoen.....aber es ist momentan bestimmt schei.... kalt.
Marc
For Our English speaking contingent: ;)
Hi Marc,
Welcome to the Forum.
Thanks for the Kind words. Hopefully it turns out ok in the end.
It's Good to see you here. Hopefully you will post some of your work/projects. What are you currently working on?
No worries about the English....as they say..."A picture is worth a thousand words".
Quote from: jacq01 on January 29, 2009, 05:51:18 AM
Marc,
You are aware that the wheelhouse on the Danube barge is on the rear, sitting directly over the rudder quadrant?
Jacq
Rudder in rear....that much I do know about boats. ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Marc
OK you got it, next the proper names
rear = stern
front = bow
left and right follow shortly... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Jacq
I usually only concern myself with where the galley and the head are on most vessels.
Have you come up with some water yet Marc? I have used just about everything from Envirotex to the Vallejo water and they all behave very much the same in terms of the "riding up". In such a small scale it's quite evident. My solution to this was not to completely finish anything directly at the waterline, pour water and then add the final touches where the water product has done it's thing to disguise it as much as possible. For where the product meets the hull of a vessel, I implied some wave type movement in the water with a different product that will stand on it's own like the WS "water effects" or a clear two part epoxy. I should note that I have had a problem with the Woodland Scenics Realistic Water in that over time it has developed small cracks. Not seen with any of the other products mentioned.
This is my latest effort on a small steam launch diorama using a combination of the Vallejo flat water and WS water effects.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi191.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz79%2Fchesterf%2Fdio%2520build%2F6g.jpg&hash=1dc8dc4fc55f67e4e236c986558243ab44ec73ef)
By the way, progress so far is spectacular on the vessels.
Interesting project Marc...
I do know the pointy bit goes to the front... ;) ;D ;D ;D
Paul
And for those boats that don't have a head, ........
Don't pee into the wind! Pat
Chester: Thanks for the Info. Much appreciated. I like how you achieved the flowwing and disturbed water in your scene. Very convincingly done. Talk about a shallow draft though ;) ;D
Slow progress. About 10 hours worth.
First step was to add the bow piece. this was followed by adding the upper "bumper rail". Note that the rail is installed about .010" above the decking. This was done to give a positive stop and guide for the railing and trim detail later on.
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Next came the scribing of the horizontal and vertical hull plate lines. For the horizontals I used an old carpenters trick. By carefuly running locked dividers along the upper bumper rail, you will get a traced paralell line where you need/want it.
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Vertical Panel lines were then scribed deeper using a Mission Models .010 panel scriber.
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The final steps were to attach the other bumper rails (these are 1/2 round styrene), and insert .015" (.004) styrene rod into the scribed vertical plate lines. These thin rods were then treated the same manner as on the deck, to represent the welds seams.
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This pretty much completes the basic hull. Now I can move on to the rudder area, hull details and the superstructure.
Marc
Ingenious method and nice job of 'fairing the chine'.
Marc, really enjoying another one of your builds come together. Pat
Marc,
looks good, the bottom "bumper " is a bit strange, but will not be so evident when the water is in and other debris in place. As chester noticed, a nice way to hide the chine.
The other rubbing strakes look convincing, a good number of bumps and dents will do no harm.
Jacq
Thanks Guys!....err maybe I should first ask/make sure what fairing or hiding a "chine" is.... sounds like something the workers yell at me on the jobsite ??? :-X ;D ;D
Jacq; The bottom strake was sort of an afterthought.....I think I was just too tired of making weld seams, and I also needed to hide a small space between the bow, and that vertical bow piece. I am hoping that I will be able to create the right looking dents and damage to these.
Slow and tedious progress...but I have finally got some of the rough superstructure done. The red parts are the heavily modified kit superstructure...all the cast on detail (which was a lot) has been removed, length shortened, and the top edges of the pieces have all been reshaped/cut flat (they come shaped to the same curvature as the deck) The reson for using the kit pieces is because they are a nice rigid plastic , and are pre-shaped at the bottom to match the hull...so they will function as a good substructure and template for the new styrene pieces. The larger holes in the sides are where I was first contemplating portholes, but have since changed my mind on the shape/height of the superstructure.
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The windows (just set in place) are modifed/cut down "SR&RL Coach Windows" from Grandt Line. I liked the arched shape of these to give the boat more of an "older period" look.
I also decided that on the finished model I wanted to be able to see down into the flooded hull, so I built a rear compartment hatch frame....but I think it is a bit too large of an opening...so I need to build another one. [...on a boat with this severe of an arch to the deck....is the upper edge of such a surround basically "paralell" to the deck...or say paralelll/in line with the horizontal planes of the superstructure/paralell to the water line...(thus causing it to be taller at one end than the other)? ]
Marc
Very good progress.
Minimum coaming height for hatch reardeck is 610mm. When this hatch is only opened in port for maintenance etc
height can be reduced to 300mm and not have the possiblitiy to be opened from both sides ( toggles only on outside)
Hatch can be hinged and have portholes ( skylights for engine room) and shown in opened positon.
Upper plane of coaming to be straight to enable opening hatch, plane is NOT necessary parallel to sheer ( curvature) in deck. Often front and rear match minimum coaming height and top is straight between these points. Transverse the deck curvature ( camber) is often followed for easy water run off. at centreline the distance deck - top of coaming 610mm.
It is also possible to have a knuckle in the hatch ( shape like a roof), especilly when skylights are used.
Wheelhouse windows look very good. Dooropening behind window is correct in height ( 450mm)
Normally wheelhouse floor is raised 300mm (12") so coaming of wheelhouse doors are allowed to be 150mm ( 6")
Total deck - doorsill = 450mm .
Close port holes under wheelhouse windows.
Maybe you can wrap a thin sheet stryrene/foil around front of superstructure to cover openings ? Rotting through.?
WATER. use for 2 -2,5 mm murky coloured envirotex and don't bother about creep up.
as final layer use opaque coloured acrylic medium gloss heavy applied by brush to imitiate calm water
with some wind effect. Use coarse brush in circular moves. The thickness will cover the creep of the evirotex.
Not to hard to create a 0,5mm layer or more. ( LIQUITEX GLOSS MEDIUM HEAVY)
Jacq
Thanks for all the info and advice Jacq.
Available time has been tight....but I made some progress on the superstructure. Also made some of the interior detail parts for the wheelhouse area....but need to do some prep and painting before I can install them. Next will be the wheelhouse roof, and some of the revits, bolts and details for the superstructure. (The joint/gap at the hull/superstructure joint will be concealed by reinforcing angles and straps.) Interior of the wheelhouse will be lined in wood.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FWG_18.jpg&hash=3e5f4d07da0d410039c960eafdaf75fff1f3ad3d)
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Marc
I am already imagining what this project will look like when it is finished and your work will no doubt exceed my expectations, judging from your earlier work. No pressure at all :)
regards Michael
Looks very good, I like the wheelhouse shape and the broken and bent railing.
What do you do for a exhaust ? Is it steam or diesel ? Is it a tug?
The joint between superstructure and hull can be a simple strip, welded to the deck and bolted/riveted even welded
to the deckhouse/wheelhouse sides.
Wheelhouse camber can be 1/2 of main deck camber.
jacq
Just found this, lots of details ( railings, masts, nav, lights, davits, etc,etc
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/dio/dio-eh/p2/hodges-index.html (http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/dio/dio-eh/p2/hodges-index.html)
and moods.... click on the buttons at the top....
http://sp.maquettes.free.fr/pages/43.html (http://sp.maquettes.free.fr/pages/43.html)
Thanks Jacq...the second link really had some stuff that was of help.
...well nothing exciting or earth shattering...but since Marty mentioned elswhere my penchant for not completing anything ;) ;D ;D.......I thought I had better show what I completed at 5:30am yesterday, when I couldn't fall asleep.
Sorry for the over exposure...I tried shooting in direct sunlight for the heck of it. It looks like I will be needing around 20-40 of these rotting wood piles/posts/timbers in various sizes shapes and heights for the base on this project. This one is about 2-1/2" tall. The line in the image shows where the water line will be. This was done using modified a wet-on-wet application of Vallejo acrylics, recommended to me by Per Olav Lund. The dark shiney (wet) area around the bottom was done after the painting, by dipping the post into a small container of thinned Tamiya "Smoke". I still need to do a more experimenting with the coloring (there is actually more variation and some brown than the image shows)...but it was a fun quickie project to FINISH ;) ;D ;D ;D.
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Marc
Very well excecuted mooring post. Leave it as it is.....................the water around it is too contaminated to support any sort of shellfish living on it.
i'll have a nice train weekend, nothing fancy, just fun. Next weekend I'll see Marcel and Alan in Utrecht.
wonder what progress will be by that time...
Jacq
Thanks.
I was not planning on any barnacles or such....though I was thinking of just the slightest bit of green ground foam at the very bottom of the green area, to represent a build-up of the moss/mildew....or maybe soem sea-slime/grass that has attached itself........mainly though I just need to play around with adding a bit more brownish streaking and coloration at in areas. I will probably end up making about twice as many of these as I need, and then picking out the better ones for the final scene.
Enjoy the weekend. Have fun with the guys. Hopefully it isn't too cold & wet. Please give say hello to Marcel for me & give him my regards.
Marc
Congratulations on finishing the project! ;D ;D ;D
I am looking forward to seeing your finished water with algae and what not.
-Marty
not modeling, working on the workbench..... :-X :-X
The images attached at the very bottom, show the types of rotten wood I need to make. Beacuse of the number I need to make and the linited time in regards to all the other parts of the dio, I took a slightly different and faster approach and didn't experiment as I might have like to....but in the end, I think they will work fine in the overall scene.
Using Square and rectangular Balsa pieces.
Break the corners, score and rough up with a razor saw.
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Clean off the worst fuzz, and raduis more using 180-grit sandpaper.
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Use Dremel with wire wheel to shape and grain.
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...then use tweezers to remove fuzz and splinters.
Brush on a coat of diluted Matte medium folllowed, while still damp with a coat of diluted walmut drawing ink.
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Working "wet" over eachother apply Vallejo acrylics (I used these colors because they were the closest to what I needed that I had on hand)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FMR_WG24.jpg&hash=3689b283086162ab144074f53efd795af5d3628b)
...once again use tweezers to remove any remaining or new fuzz.
Apply diluted spot washes of MIG "Brown Wash"; when dry mix Vallejo acrylics into a murky black-green, and paint "waterline"
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FMR_WG25.jpg&hash=58f9dcf80c32787751fcb81467b58e2ccfcc1474)
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Using Micro-Mark fiberglass pencil lightly brush to remove any coagulated paint, fuzz, more subtly blend/transition the colors and to refine the grain.
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....Next is the Moss green....
Marc
That last photo must be your benchmark, fantastic...............
Put on the spot where the broken handrail was attached, broken weldseam rests, particullary on spots like these bad welding was done, creating corrosion nests.
Jacq
Thanks for the picture SBS Marc it is great to see how others do things, the reference pics do tell the story of the sort of atmosphere that you are working for.
regards Michael
Thanks Marc for SBS.
Good timing as I have have been experimenting along similiar lines - although my wooden piles are for a dry desert situation rather than a watery one :) - but also for MIG challenge
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi232.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee275%2Fgfadvance%2FWreck%2FWoodenpiles.jpg&hash=7e69930c99ae4a5fc274b5a4d7b1af9cab092633)
Techniques are very similiar to yours , first 2 are balsa, with different stains last three are hard wood dowels again with different finishes, paint, stain additional wire brushing.
Not there yet but the second one has the type of surface I am looking for but color needs to more like 1st one.( I think, as I have never been in a hot dry desert myself?)
Gordon
Any progress ??? or are you busy painting the horse ;D ;D
Jacq
Gordon,
The posts look good. What are you building for the challenge?....Will you be posting an SBS thread over on MIG, or here?
http://Jacq,
Some progress...just taking a lot of work time to make it seem like anything is happening. I am not sure if I like the rail/hull height at the stern area....am thinking of cutting it down 12-18" and also doing a small platform area at the very rear to mount two bollards.
The superstructure was painted because I needed to do the interior and the inside of the hull before assembly, as those areas would be difficult or impossible to reach later....sO I decided to paint the exterior whith the leftover paint. Painted the hull because I was tired of looking at the red...and to see where I still needed to sand/patch.
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Marc
Looks amazingly good Marc,
I agree that the bullworks above the deck should be shortened, it just looks too tall. If this is a tug or used for similar tasks, then the lines would have issues clearing the raised portions of the metal when towing a craft or item that sits low in the water. You might consider photoshopping the image to see what the height should be. This could save you a lot of grief in building.
Just some thoughts,
DG
Marc,
the forward "rail" ( bulwark ) looks very good, the rear one doesn't. You better make it a railing with stanchions starting where the front bulwark stops and have the hull protruding 4"- 6" above deck . If a wave comes over the water cannot run off fast enough so it has a negative effect on the stability. Will you add a funnel or a rudimentary exhaust at the side of the deckhouse?
I like the deckhouse and surface detailing. This will be a very nice convincing wreck.
Jacq
PS http://Jacq, is not opening.
Quote from: marc_reusser on March 07, 2009, 01:02:07 AM
Gordon,
The posts look good. What are you building for the challenge?....Will you be posting an SBS thread over on MIG, or here?
Thanks Marc, building abandoned late 1920's pick-up (1/24) left over from the "dust bowl era". Will post details on MIG, and here if OK - not sure about a SBS as nearly ( well all!) the techniques are/will be taken from what I have learned on this and on MIG's forum so don't think there is much I could teach or show anybody that's new.
Anyway love the progress you are making on this project , you've certainly got the ability to turn your imagination into reality - look forward to the next report on this ( and the car cart !) :)
Let me know if you need anymore drawings - hope what I sent was of use
Gordon
Gordon,
Project sounds cool. What kit are you using...or are you doing all scratch?
FWIW, for the Mig, you should probably post at least a start/intent posting at this point, and some degree of SBS as you go. Part of the challenge reasons and requirements is for everyone to show the techniques they use and how they implement them...regardless of if they are new or not (pretty much all the techniques are a derivative from somewhere anyhow). They want it to be an "open" camraderie and sharing challenge, to exchange and encourage, ideas and inspiration.
Thanks for the help offer...still using all the great stuff you sent me previously....a lot there...so, so far, I'm okay.
Marc
Is this of any help ??
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages49.fotki.com%2Fv1456%2Fphotos%2F7%2F1437817%2F7344750%2Fmooringpoles-vi.jpg&hash=24b570ede6e21e1ad8de6961e612c2883b8c83f9)
Jacq
Jacq,
Thats great. Thanks. Did you take that photo?
Along with the ones of the pilings in the Ship Graveyards, I have been using the following ones also.
M
M
Some more slow progress.
The model took a fall off the workbench on Sunday, shortly after I finished the masts.....so I spent the last few days on repairs.
Here is a view of the top of the mast and the end of the Jib(?) The mast was made using styrene tubing and rod, and drilling them out so the sections could slide into eachother.
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I also re-cut/rebuilt the rear bullwark and added the hold. The rudder is the Original kit rudder that has been reshaped and detail added. The jib is completely operational, and the brass pin is only there for temporary fastening.
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In the front I used the kit supplied davit with some clean-up and additional detailing added. The capstan on the fore-deck was made using a Grandt-Line stove part, and Star washer/bolt, then turning them in the Dremel and shaping them with a Mission-models chisel & Xacto, till I achieved the desired shape.
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I was originally thinking of doing a collapsed mast, but after looking at photos, and speaking with a fellow modeler that builds ships, I came to the conclusion that this was not really a common or frequent occurence. I also found I like the height that it provides the scene, and the accentuated visual of the listing of the boat.
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Marc
Marc, Sorry to hear about the damage and lost time, your skills are humbling....Can't wait to see what you do with the jetty (that is a great photo)......Randy
Marc -
The lowered aft bulwark look much more tug-like.
Mark
Marc,
the photo came from a local e- magazine. It's close to where the naval architecture faculty stood.
The changes made make the model stand out very very well. The boom ( jib) and mast are giving the boat as said
a needed hight. It has become a boat.
If possible chamfer the transitions in diameters of the mast and boom to simulate welded joints.
I still mis an exhaust of the engine. A possibility is a 4" pipe (next to the rounded top of the stairwell is a good place)
with a nice hinged flap for keeping the water out.
Do you have already rigging blocks ? Let me know what sizes ( 8 - 10 - 12 mm ) or ( 2,5 - 6 mm ) and I'll have some send to you.
Jacq
Thanks Jaqc, and thanks for the offer on the Blocks.....I think I will be OK, I was just going to have one or two at the most.....was taking your point about much of this kind of stuff being stripped from abandoned boats. I am planning on leaving the Jib laying on the gunwale, and dipping into the water, with all the rigging lines gone except for mabye one or two loose ones that sort of tangled on the mast, and drape across the deck.
Thanks for the weld tip...i will probably do the seam out of stretched sprue or milliput. I need to be careful there as the sidewalls of the tubes are only about .007" (.185 mm) thick in these areas.
There are lots of small details like rivets (+/ 200) and fasteners that I still need to add...as well as some major details like the pilit house roof, chain pipe to locker, double plating under the windlass & locker pipe, a pair of capstan/fairlead posts at in front of the capstan....and of course the exhaust. I have been playing around with two options for the exhaust, on as being a pipe that comes through the roof at the rear left of the cabin, bends across the roof and has a muffler on it, and then bends uppward at the right side of the cabin rear.....I kind of like the added detail/interest of the muffler on the roof; the other was sim to the option you suggested. My issue has been the size/dia of the exhaust pipe....as this is not a large boat I was figuring it would only be about 1-1/2" to 2" in dia....but it seems a bit "skimpy" visually....the 4" you mention sounded a bit big....but then I don't know. When I am thinking engine size...think of a small Europen or Italian fishing boat/trawler. [I have no idea what my boat is...but not a tug and not a trawler.....I am just pretending it is some sort of multi purpose boat, work boat...or a boat used to tow small things...or maybe string bouy lines or some such thing....maybe laying net lines.]
Marc
Nice progress Marc. The finish on the cabin looks terrific and you put a lot of detail in the mast work. What will you be using for all those rivets/bolts?
You might be surprised at the size of some of the power plants in vessels. I don't think a 3 or 4 inch exhaust is too large.
Great work, as usual Marc.
Here is a link to a few snaps of an ol' scow, not quite a derelict and it's wood rather than steel but there may be a few details of interest.
http://picasaweb.google.com/mayacama1
Thank you for sharing all your techniques, experiments and models.
Cheers,
Dennis
Marc,
a muffler outside is on ships not common. For the type of boat you have in mind, a 150 - 300 HP engine would do the job so a 4" exhaust is not unusual.
Don't go overboard :D with rivets, as you have used mainly welded constructions. You can add a bolted plate over the rudder stock/quadrant. Add in the rear a double bollard port and starboard.
Jacq
Thanks for all the comments and support, and helpful information. Much appreciated...keeps me moving forward.
Dennis,
Nice to see you posting here. Thanks for the link. Great pics...especailly the views of the deck and works.
Jacq,
I agree on the rivets....I am just adding some here and there on the double plating areas for "Reinforcement" ;).....I unfortunately need these for some "artistic license: too add some visual detail for paint effects....but thanks to Dennis' pics I may be able to do more with "deck clutter" in some areas.
I am also cosidering a small area of pooled water on deck on the low side of the ship, with some dirt/debris and weeds growing there (from washed/blown aboard, or bird-pooped seeds)....but that would be one of the last details added after painting.
OK...4" exhaust it will be....though I am thinking of a bent/angled one with the angled cut end (I think I have a beautiful Mosskit hollow exhaust for a Panther that can be modified for this). I was thinking in the front left corner if the rear cabin...next to the arched roof area (I have a mushroom type vent in that location on the other side. About how high should the exhaust be...I assume about 6" above the pilot house roof.
Marc
QuoteAbout how high should the exhaust be...I assume about 6" above the pilot house roof.
6" is a minimum. If it is close to a door or opening window, make it taller. The fume backdraft into the wheelhouse was not appreciated very much. Don't forget the hinged lid on top.
Jacq
This project is not dead yet. ;)
Nothing much...but it felt like it took darn near forever.....hard to see...but there are some 300 rivets there so far. ::) :-\
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FMR_WateryGrave%2FMR_WG35.jpg&hash=ab06bb85a458dcfb10bcc7ff9d71e8fdc11496c0)
....I sure don't look forward to masking this.
Built the base for this scene also....will post a pic as I get some of the small details added to it.
Marc
Looks like a lot more than "nothing much" to me. -- Russ
cast rivets or stick on?
Just curious since I have never used the stick on, I dont think they would have enough relief, but adding several hundred might be easier?
Of course in this scale how thick do they really need to be? .010"?...
-Marty
Marty...
Neither. ;) The rivets (.018 & .023 dia) are all done with a Waldron "Sub-Miniature" punch & die set, out of .005 styrene. Then applied individually using Plastruct solvent.
I can't tell you how "liberated" I feel since I purchased this Waldron set, and the set from Micro-Mark......I am planning on purchasing one or two hex shaped punch & die sets as well.
Marc
Hi Marc, what happened to the tug boat dio?
Martin
Um...it's sitting in my cabinet and file drawers....got hung up on some details/ideas and how to resolve them, and I never got back to it.
Also got somewhat hung-up in my own mind about the ships themselves...the further I got into the project and research, the more the boats began to feel wrong, out of proportion and charicatureish....so was reticent to invest any more time going down a wrong path.
I probably should give it a go again, as I have gotten several inquiries about progress on this dio over the last year. ::)
Marc
Marc, if it helps with reference info, you could join a small group of which I'm a member. It's a yahoo group called classicwoodenboatmodels and although it was set up by a woody fan (you know, shiny stuff<G>), the guy who started it has uploaded a lot of files and drawings of workboats. OK, maybe they're all wooden, but the basic proportions didn't really change much and all the upper works are likely to be in wood, as are your decks I see.
Worth a try. Mike has uploaded a lot of stuff at his own expense and we all owe him a debt of gratitude for the time and expense he's gone to for his fellow boat fans. This was not being done on the bigger model boat forums.
Also, if you want to swat up on some boat nomenclature, design aspects, etc., we can all help you, as indeed I can on here. Just ask.
Cheers,
Martin
I have received a good number of inquiries about this dio, and whether I was going to continue it......then today, I was doodling in the corner of my pad at work, thinking about the project, when it occured to me I needed a buoy for detail, interest, and to fill some more space in the scene. .....I figured it would also be a good way to work myself back into the right frame of mind for the project. So I have now removed, boxed, and stored away all my other "in progress" builds, and this is now on my bench.......
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2Fmworks%2FWateryGrave%2FWG_BuoySketch.jpg&hash=ef7bfe3f55569385169a2b9a76f6be47be95bdcf)
M
Grrrrr......I had forgotten what an absolutely retarded scale 'S' is. Not a scale I can comparatively visualize in at all. :-X ....first buoy base attempt ended up being 1/48 ...#@!*±%
....back to the bench for round two.....this time with that worthless MRR scale ruler and calipers......Grrrrrr.
M
I think you got cornfused there! ;D
S scale: 3/16" = 1 foot ... every 1/64" = 1 scale inch
It's 1/35 that requires the special ruler. :D
Cheers,
Dallas
Glad this project is back on the desk, if your next version is too big you can always turn it into this
http://www.postlerferguson.com/work/buoy-lamps
Yes, Dallas, S scale is an easy one to manage computationnally speaking.
Thanks for posting the drawing, Marc. I'm not so far from the moment when I'll have to build such a buoy for my current Dave's Corner project, a shameless copy of Dave Revelia's marine boatworks diorama, and the dimensionnal hints will help me to do this part of the work.
I'm not saying the scale is difficult to compute....it's just not a visual scale I can associate with in any way. I have spent my working days for the last 35 years dealing with and visualizing in 1/1, 1/48, 1/35, 1/32, 1/24, 1/12, 1/5, 1/10, 1/20, 1/100 and so on......but NEVER in that whole time have I EVER had to do anything in 3/16...so what I am saying is that this is a scale that regardless of knowing how it works mathematically, is a visually incomprehensible scale for me.....in other scales, I can generally look at an item and estimate and eye-ball the scale size, or at least recognize the proportional relevance/association/feel of a detail, part, moulding etc. to real life.....but not in this scale. I can't see it at all....I have to physically measure the part/detail, then visualize it/or the visual proportion, in either full scale, or in a scale I am familiar with. Plus because I am so unused to working in this scale, I have an automatic mental tendancy, while building, to unknowingly drift towards a scale I am visually familiar with...like the 1/48....especially so since I have it's pretty much ingrained in me what real world dimensions the different sizes of plastic sheet and strip are in 1/48 and 1/35.
Not complaining here.....it's all part of model building....just saying it's an idiotic scale. ;D
Marc
Frederic,
The buoy and dimensions I have shown are just arbitrary inventions from my head. The buoy itself is a combination/amalgamation of ideas and details that I recall from looking at real world examples....compined with what I think would work well in the scene....so it is only an "inspired by" type of model...not a prototypically correct one....I would probably get hammered by naval architects/engineers.
....the same goes for the proportion...I just happened to like the ones in the sketch...which if the drawing is assumed at 1/48 scale.....happened to scale out at those dimensions.
Marc
Quote from: gfadvance on November 09, 2010, 04:36:44 AM
Glad this project is back on the desk, if your next version is too big you can always turn it into this
http://www.postlerferguson.com/work/buoy-lamps
Those are quite cool....interesting site as well, with some creative work and approach...though the paper automatics are kind of strange...well done and designed...but a strange subject. It does lead me to inquire though...is the company related to you?
M
Marc, thanks for the comment. You know, I have never seen such an object except in pictures, and I am sure I couldn't guess its dimensions better than you.
So as not to let the incorrect 1/48 sized base go to waste, I built up a very quick and rough mock-up of the complete buoy, so that I could check to see of I liked the design and proportions. This piece will also be good later on to experiment with the painting and weathering.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2Fmworks%2FWateryGrave%2FWG_TB_1.jpg&hash=b03153905ae13f342fa5726c89605db301b19ba8)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2Fmworks%2FWateryGrave%2FWG_TB_2.jpg&hash=84b59abe50c47c6206a74da3bc59655805c49cf9)
The second try on the base with the correct diameter. A PVC 1/2" pipe coupling was used for the cylinder, and .010" styrene strip was used for the banding. The 110 .018 dia. rivets were punched from .005 styrene, using a Waldron punch and die set.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2Fmworks%2FWateryGrave%2FWG_B1.jpg&hash=eaaaaa0574c462f64ec0a32366772a4dde6e80ff)
Marc
I must say I find your quick mock-up a fairly nice looking part, Marc.
I was just about to say the same thing. I wish my final results would look as beautiful as your "mock-up".
Oh buoy!
Quote from: BKLN on November 11, 2010, 01:41:10 PM
I was just about to say the same thing. I wish my final results would look as beautiful as your "mock-up".
Indeed, I also.
That is one heck of a nice mockup!
Obviously this is only a "mock-up" as Marc has used the incorrect sized rivets and there are not enough of them . I know because I counted them !
I hope you don't throw this trial away when you have finished (?) it because it is to good to trash ,
Nick
What/how are the angle pieces that secure the superstructure to the base made from?
Excellent mock-up too!
-Mj
Marty,
The angle pieces are fabricated from two pieces of .010 strip styrene.
Was rainy and cold here, but decided to have some fun playing around with painting on the test buoy.
Base colors were done with Tamiya colors, mixed to a couple shades of rust. This was followed by a coat of Model-Master "Lusterless Flat" clear coat.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2Fmworks%2FWateryGrave%2FWG_TB_3.jpg&hash=b55345d3645fccbdcbb0b59ba79cecb28e2cca5c)
After 3 coats of hairspray., the color coats were applied. Color coat consisted of a mixture of Game Color "Dwarf Skin" (#72041), "Hot Orange" (#72009), and Panzer Aces "Stencil" (#313). A leftover Eduard 1/35 scale number mask (though abit oversized for this) was used to mask the '3', and Tamiya masking tape was used to mask the line; which were sprayed with the "Stencil" color .
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2Fmworks%2FWateryGrave%2FWG_TB_4.jpg&hash=6f36b28bc4ff9f9b8a3ba3f8dbed8a16f8fbdd49)
Chipping done with brushes, toothpicks, and a T-pin.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2Fmworks%2FWateryGrave%2FWG_TB_5.jpg&hash=eebb2079ca6cd7709c8eaf274a085d34933b03e9)
The first weathering stage. Fading done using Windsor Newton artist oil color "Titanium White", followed by the initial rust wash and some streaking, using Abteilung-502 oil color "Dark Rust" (#070).
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2Fmworks%2FWateryGrave%2FWG_TB_6.jpg&hash=d10c38db6d06251eab92e99ffafa3e4c9237e4de)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2Fmworks%2FWateryGrave%2FWG_TB_7.jpg&hash=1d90a9ad40be54d295511c9c2306623923d13a7e)
Marc
Well, for a test, I'd say that looks pretty good... nicely done.
Paul
Thanks, there are still a number of steps to finish it off, but it was good to find the right colors. Also found out that red is a PIA to weather ....might need to add some color mapping on the final buoy to add some more intrest and depth.
Marc
Yes it is... Did you have any reference photos to work from? I'm curious about the corrosion and streaking since buoys are continually wet... I made it a policy not to get too close to these things during my sailing days, so really don't have a point of reference.
Paul
Yes, I pulled a number of ref. pics.....of course I might have been selective for streaky ones.. ;) ;D.....but unlike active sea/ocean buoys that get fairly wet all over, this buoy is an old and neglected one, located in a somewhat shelltered setting that does not get a lot of wave action...but does get rain and the typical moist night air......(the list/tilt being from a recent slow leak into the buoy...thus the streaking still follows the vertical path).
I need to add some darker streaking and settled rust around the vertical parts/details on the platform base, an in the chips
Marc
Nice look, Marc, I'll borrow your finish ideas for my still to be built model.
Why do the waves modify the way the thing gets corroded?
Well for a trial piece its not bad ;D
And now I understand why your works looks finer than anything I can produce " its just a piece of 10 thou " and also because you have a very clear view of the colour/tones of the finished piece you do seem to get the first coats of colour right i.e light enough to take the subsequent weathering ( I'm going to ignore the indirect boasting on the number of different paints/manufacturers you have - you have admitted to this collection before)
Now for my couple of comments and questions
The "fading with white oil paint" do you apply this as a thinned wash over the whole piece or by applying small dots of neat white and then drag/thin them out as the the armour guys do ?
Rust streaking .... I can follow your logic on the leak proving the list of vertical, but, would the vertical streaks be as pronounced if the buoy was still floating and therefore even in almost calm conditions still moving? I think the effect you have so far, which I do like, would be more likely to appear if the buoy was washed/dragged up on the shore and not moving ... obviously the streaks would then need to reflect the angle of the buoy v the shore. (think of the fun you could then have with the rusty/barnacled covered anchor chain)
OK before going to the mythical corner I'm of to find a horse that will let me borrow some hair ;)
Gordon,
I wish I could find some 003 styrene! ;) ;D Just think of my paints as substitutes for porn mags....but I don't have to worry about hiding them from the wife. Sorry if I seemed to be 'indirectly boasting'...not my intent...although I did buy 10 more colors on Saturday. ;D
The buoy actually has 3 values of the same color...each one just lighter. If you look close at the second photo, you can see that I did a combination of fading/panel fading (most noticeable on the rounr top of the base), weather streaking (notably on the base, and on the flat upper panels), and color modulation (noticeable when you look at the difference in value at the top of the tower, compared to where it hits the base). By working progressivelylighter each time, I can leave or cover as much of the darker previous shades as needed.
I used to have major issues with finding the color I want, or ending up with it drying too dark or just wrong.....my solution has been my color charts that I make showing the original colors, and then the mixes (noting the ratios)....this way I can see what I will be getting for the base color.....and I can go back and look at the info later if I ever need it...or just plain see the colors and mixes to see if I want to use them for a current build.
I applied the oil fading directly from the brush (I used a flat round tipped brush)...just lightly dabbed the tip into a dab of oil paint, and then applied it (this was often repeated a number of times till I got the shade/look/lightness I wanted). On the flat top of the base, I worked it around in a pushing and circular type motion, whereas on the sides of the base and on the flat number panels I worked the brush in a vertical motion...the same way water would run down them fading the color (this is sim to the idea of "rain streaks").
I admit that as you say, the streaking is more reminiscent of a beached buoy....since some of the images I had were of that....but I actually found a few in the water that had it (unfortunately I printed them, and did not save them on the PC)......and generally, just figure it as a charicatureish "On30 Conspiracy" interpretation , done for visual effect ;) ....be happy it's not yeller-and-green. ;) ;D I was actually considering some barnacles on the area bare rust area that used to be below the water surface....but seeing that this was in an estuary type area with a mix of fresh and salt water, and a ton of pollution, I was not sure how much life would grow on it....maybe a bit of green slimey algae.
Marc
Boy is looking good! Or boo-ee.
Mylar drafting film is approx .004 thick.
Hi Marc
find the subject very interesting and very much to my heart.
have just gone back through the thread because there was something bugging me that I has intended to contact you about. now remembered what it was.
there is something wrong with the bulwarks, particularly the stern (although the bow also fits into my comments). Both areas are out of balance with the hull and the upper works. the rake and lines are very good, but I think the stern bullwarks are far too high for this hull, thus creating an imbalance in the lines. in the same vein the stern could also be a fraction lower to give a better balance with the upper works.
Love the angle on the marker buoys. Brings these to life.
as always I am really enjoying looking at your work.
have fun
Bernard
Hi Marc
forgot to attach the photos to illustrate the point I am trying to convey.
Bernard
Here are a few pics I found of rust streaks on bouys in the water:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fusers.rcn.com%2Fdhkaye%2FBoston%2520Harbor%2520ATNs%2520w-chart%2F09chart%2520RED-GREEN-NUN.jpg&hash=edd28dadf9aaacba5deafa75418583f3a0d2f637)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fusers.rcn.com%2Fdhkaye%2FBoston%2520Harbor%2520ATNs%2520w-chart%2F11chart%2520YELLOW-NUN-E.jpg&hash=5a81b68fed319f6427c1d6c3772d9bb59018a567)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fusers.rcn.com%2Fdhkaye%2FBoston%2520Harbor%2520ATNs%2520w-chart%2F04chart%2520GREEN-LIGHTED-BUOY.jpg&hash=a028c0610b9650c7c95e920e7cd7bc191e9e1319)
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 11, 2010, 01:21:19 PMThe 110 .018 dia. rivets were punched from .005 styrene, using a Waldron punch and die set.
Marc, I have been searching this punch and die set and on the links I've found the smallest diameter was 0.039" (1mm). Is there a secret magic formula to utter while googling to find it? :)
Frederic --
Try: "Waldron sub miniature punch and die set"
(The "sub miniature" bit would be the key to finding the smaller set)
Sample listing with photo:
http://www.greatmodels.com/~smartcart/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=WR0019
Note: I haven't dealt with this vendor or purchased the tool yet ... it's just on my list of interesting advice from Marc that should be tried at some point! ;)
Cheers,
Dallas
Don't forget the seagulls. they leave some nice colours behind ;D ;D
Looks great.
Jacq
Thank you, Dallas. It's expensive...
Marc, saw this over at the MIG forum awhile ago and didn´t realize until today that there was a thread here as well. Some of the best work I have ever seen...............world class!
Anders ;D
This is not part of the "Watery Grave" dio, but rather a new scene inspired by it....but as this is all I can post of this, and I dont have anywhere else to really put this......... 1/35 scale, decaying boat, all balsa wood construction (Reason for odd cut hull is that only the front/this portion of the boat will be seen on the scene)...I know a "farts worth" about boat building, so i tried to create a visually plausible piece...still lots of internal bits and details to be done.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F215972_2512036416229_348435162_n.jpg&hash=8fa80485d45cf8fa3e10db07fc7d1598ed06eab6)
If your buoy looks a bit lonely, you could provide some company:
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16630765/buoy_Alaska.jpg)
This one is from Alaska, near Juneau.
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 26, 2012, 01:41:25 AM
This is not part of the "Watery Grave" dio, but rather a new scene inspired by it....but as this is all I can post of this, and I dont have anywhere else to really put this......... 1/35 scale, decaying boat, all balsa wood construction (Reason for odd cut hull is that only the front/this portion of the boat will be seen on the scene)...I know a "farts worth" about boat building, so i tried to create a visually plausible piece...still lots of internal bits and details to be done.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F215972_2512036416229_348435162_n.jpg&hash=8fa80485d45cf8fa3e10db07fc7d1598ed06eab6)
Is this going to Germany next year when you meet up with Alex ? How do I know ? Because I met him at Telford in Shropshire a few weeks ago . I also bought some of his ply sheets . Now I have got to think of a way of using them .
I look forward to seeing this one finished . Now where have I heard that said before ?
Nick
Avast, mateys! Hoist the yardarm! Man the poop! Reusser is at it again.... -- Russ
QuoteIs this going to Germany next year when you meet up with Alex ? How do I know ? Because I met him at Telford in Shropshire a few weeks ago . I also bought some of his ply sheets . Now I have got to think of a way of using them .
I look forward to seeing this one finished . Now where have I heard that said before ?
Nick
"Mr Sneaky-Funnyman"....yes, this is because of Alex....being done as an article on painting/weathering "rotting wood" for the German Magazine ModellFan (so is the rusty 3 wheel Daihatsu). I will be doing a short demo on both at EuroModel Expo Next year. If you go, you will also get to see demos/clinics by Per Olav Lund, Spencer Pollard, and others....it will likely be your only chance to publicly heckle and mock me on your side of the pond.
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 26, 2012, 02:28:56 PM
QuoteIs this going to Germany next year when you meet up with Alex ? How do I know ? Because I met him at Telford in Shropshire a few weeks ago . I also bought some of his ply sheets . Now I have got to think of a way of using them .
I look forward to seeing this one finished . Now where have I heard that said before ?
Nick
"Mr Sneaky-Funnyman"....yes, this is because of Alex....being done as an article on painting/weathering "rotting wood" for the German Magazine ModellFan (so is the rusty 3 wheel Daihatsu). I will be doing a short demo on both at EuroModel Expo Next year. If you go, you will also get to see demos/clinics by Per Olav Lund, Spencer Pollard, and others....it will likely be your only chance to publicly heckle and mock me on your side of the pond.
Unfortunately I'll be enroute back from Australia at that time so I won't be able to come and give you a hard time . I guess I'll just have to deputise Gordon as my stand in . He'll give you a much easier ride .
Nick
Marc,
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 26, 2012, 01:41:25 AM
This is not part of the "Watery Grave" dio, but rather a new scene inspired by it....but as this is all I can post of this, and I dont have anywhere else to really put this......... 1/35 scale, decaying boat, all balsa wood construction (Reason for odd cut hull is that only the front/this portion of the boat will be seen on the scene)...
... nice to see you getting back on this (or similar) project again ... one of my favourites here ... ;)
I am just curious, what the crucial factor was preferring balsa (instead of styrene)? Better to work with? More realistic appearance? And what are you going to use simulating water - clear resin?
Cheers
Thanks to Gordon, and his photos... ::) ;D
More fiddley maritime stuff in progress. 1/35 abandoned marker light. Balsa and styrene. Still numerous little bits/details to add once the wood is stained and weathered.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F68279_2518454776684_236444386_n.jpg&hash=573f995e89a3bcf3250c8f723ab71b1e20ccd41c)
Quote
I am just curious, what the crucial factor was preferring balsa (instead of styrene)? Better to work with? More realistic appearance? And what are you going to use simulating water - clear resin?
Gerald,
The primary reason for using wood instead of styrene, is because the projects is being done to show a method of painting/finishing wood, to look rotting and old. The reason for the balsa, is because of the method/technique that I am using, and to get the effect/look I am after, balsa is the best option. Baswwod does not take stain/coloring as well (balsa has it's own issues, but are easier to corrrrect fix with this approach/look). The reason for the approach to coloring I am taking, is two-fold: A.) because it gives a complete opaque/solid look to the wood..which stains and dyes do not...so you have this slight unrealistic transparency and almost always end up seeing the wood through it...which does not occur in real life, ....and B.) I want to do it with products that are readily available to the model builder in the EU (Geramany in particular)...so no Silverwood or such.
Thanks Lennart,
Would be fun to try. Sculpey, and Milliput..... ;D
Did you steam the balsa or do something else to shape it for the curves in the hull? (If you didn't, how the heck does it hold that shape with only a partial hull?) Neat stuff. -- Dallas
Dallas, I just ignorantly and blissfully plowed into it. The ribs were cut and sanded to shape out of balsa sheet. The planks were strip thinned to .020, soaked in water, and then formed to a shape by being held in place with push-pins stuck/hammered into my green cutting matt, then left over-night to dry. I formed about 5-6 planks at a time. All damage, graining etc was done before assembly. Some plangs had to be shaped (iwhatever the proper boat-builder term is for that) towards the bow. Waterproof Elmers wood glue ws used to bond the pieces (just in case I want to play with it in the tub).
QuoteUnfortunately I'll be enroute back from Australia at that time so I won't be able to come and give you a hard time . I guess I'll just have to deputise Gordon as my stand in . He'll give you a much easier ride .
Nick
Oh good god!...not the Scot! :o ;D
Fantastic work Marc! ::) ::) ::)
I´ll be in Heiden, Germany in April to check this out. Who else will be there? Thought we at least could share the same hotel bar for drinks.
Anders
Hey Anders, great to see you around the forum again.
That sounds great. I would really enjoy meeting up with you.
So far as I know/have been informed Per Olav Lund, Spencer Pollard, Alexander Glass (Uschi Von Der Rosten).....and somone from AK (rumor has it that it would likely be Mig Jimenez and/or Carlos Cuesta). There will also be some other high caliber modelers doing demos...but have not been able to weasel it out of my "guy". There are expectations that a number of the known Dutch modelers will likely also be in attendance. .....oh and of course our very own Gordon Ferguson is threatening to show.
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 27, 2012, 02:02:53 PM
Some plangs had to be shaped (iwhatever the proper boat-builder term is for that) towards the bow.
A local boatwright here calls shaping the sides of the boat towards the bow "fairing the chine".
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 27, 2012, 04:25:20 AM
Gerald,
... The primary reason for using wood instead of styrene, is because the projects is being done to show a method of painting/finishing wood, to look rotting and old ...I want to do it with products that are readily available to the model builder in the EU (Geramany in particular)...so no Silverwood or such.
... great ... 8) ... can you estimate, when it will be published (what mag?) ... and are you going to present it as a kinda short SBS here to the end?
Cheers
Thanks Chester!
Gerald; The basic wood SBS, and a rust SBS, will be in issues of ModellFan next year (possibly Jan & Feb, or March) http://www.modellfan.de/ (http://www.modellfan.de/)....the whole dio will likely not be featured...can't say for sure what it will contain yet, as it hasn't been written yet. ;D. No, I will probably not show the SBS here, at least not for a year after publication (when I can post it, or release it to another mag), as that is what I understand the terms of the agreement to be. (I can possibly post some finished pics, but not an SBS).
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 29, 2012, 02:13:06 AM
Thanks Chester!
Gerald; The basic wood SBS, and a rust SBS, will be in issues of ModellFan next year (possibly Jan & Feb, or March) http://www.modellfan.de/ (http://www.modellfan.de/)....the whole dio will likely not be featured...can't say for sure what it will contain yet, as it hasn't been written yet. ;D. No, I will probably not show the SBS here, at least not for a year after publication (when I can post it, or release it to another mag), as that is what I understand the terms of the agreement to be. (I can possibly post some finished pics, but not an SBS).
Is there going to be an English version available ?
Not within the foreseeable future. (However, I do believe you have access to a Scottish version.)
It's no big secret, or anything fancy...sim basic principals out there and around for a long time...just using different materials.
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 29, 2012, 02:26:56 PM
Not within the foreseeable future. (However, I do believe you have access to a Scottish version.)
Oh , alright . I'll stick with the German version then ,as it is more understandable than the Scottish one ! There are more recognisable words .
Ah widnae go nippin Marc's heid when eh's been on the cheeky watter if ah wis you cos eh's goat an awfy habit o' gaun radge n' glessin folk...
Paul... gaun baik tae the cirnir
Oh boy, it's going to a long winter with you lot. :D :D
Quote from: W. P. Rayner on November 29, 2012, 07:34:17 PM
Ah widnae go nippin Marc's heid when eh's been on the cheeky watter if ah wis you cos eh's goat an awfy habit o' gaun radge n' glessin folk...
Paul... gaun baik tae the cirnir
... reading this seems to me like listening to a Billy Connolly impersonater ... ;D 8)
Quote from: mad gerald on November 30, 2012, 12:22:09 AM
Quote from: W. P. Rayner on November 29, 2012, 07:34:17 PM
Ah widnae go nippin Marc's heid when eh's been on the cheeky watter if ah wis you cos eh's goat an awfy habit o' gaun radge n' glessin folk...
Paul... gaun baik tae the cirnir
... reading this seems to me like listening to a Billy Connolly impersonater ... ;D 8)
More like Rab C. Nesbitt .
Nick, we know you are the "brick" man but you are no expert on Scottich dialects.
That has definite east coast elements, probably from association with the Sunday Post and " Oor Wullie" books!
This is how I imgane the Scot bringing you the SBS info.....
My knowledge of Scotch stops at "a wee nip". ;D
S'more wood. 1/4" square pieces.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F3895_2635811070518_374918276_n.jpg&hash=c0a04f2183bd64ed574f7f551540ecc92eb493b9)
Did you make the knot in the far right-hand piece? It looks good.
Unfortunately your camera's meter was fooled by the background and resulted in a photo where the wood is too dark and therefore we can't appreciate the actual coloration. When you post your next update, remember to allow a little more exposure time so we can lust after your artistry with even more enthusiasm.
Russ
Thanks Russ. Yes, the knots on both pieces were done using the toothpick method. They could probably benefit from a touch of red-brown, and as Ken suggested, a split in the knot.
Yeah.....had some issues shooting these...aside from the contrast, I also had issues with the brown popping a good bit more saturated than it was (had to adjust it in PS). Camera is set to Aperatue Priority, F29 or F32, ISO-100, WB at 5500K, (I think with a B:1/M:1 micro adjustment).......any thoughts/suggetions.
The camera settings are fine. The meter is just fooled by the backdrop so give it a longer exposer next time and you should nail it. -- Russ
Um...under aperature priority, I don't think it's possible to do that?...isn't that the whole purpose of AP?
Should I set it to shutter priority?
Quote from: marc_reusser on January 12, 2013, 01:30:19 AM
Um...under aperature priority, I don't think it's possible to do that?...isn't that the whole purpose of AP?
Should I set it to shutter priority?
No, that will not help.
On my Canon G12 I use the aperature priority setting (and almost always choosing f 8.0 as this is the smallest aperture on this camera, and hence gives the optimal depth of field).
When I shoot with a white background I set the exposure adjustment wheel from +1/3 to +1 1/3. Or even +2 if the white background is dominating the motive. (I do not know the correct term for this wheel, so I include a picture.)
And when shooting with an dominant black background I set the wheel to between -1/3 to -2.
A classic camera light meter have no idea on what you are shooting. So at some time in history it was decided that an average motive reflects 18% light. A representation of this average motive is a Kodak grey card. If you take a picture of this greycard with an automatic, non-compansated setting, the exposures shall in theory be perfect.
A white sheet of paper or an white background is of course a lot lighter than the average motive (the grey card). But the light meter thinks that all motives are like a greycard, so you get an underexposed picture.
And with a black background the situation is reversed. The light meter again gives a reading that is correct for the grey card, and you get an overexposed picture.
This is at least how the situation was with old fashioned analog cameras. But the basics apply for modern digital cameras as well.
Did this make any sense?
Bottom line is: When shooting motives with large areas of white, find a way to "overexpose" your picture up to 2 stops.
Thanks Hauk,
I realized the exposure issue, probably as you wrote your post, when I tried running a RAW image through the Digital Negative Converter, and saw how much better it looked when I even upped the exposure. +.5 to .75. Great info on the camera default exposure settings....this is something that has been vexing me for a long time....no matter what I tried, I was always ending up with a slightly greyish/dingy looking white background, that needed cleaning in PS....I will up the camera exp setting a bit.
Now...still confused with the F stop though..........I thought Russ always says set it to the highest setting....which for me is rounf F36........this seems to give me very good depth of field, even on really close shots (granted, I have not tried F-8)
Marc
The larger the number(smaller aperture) will give the greatest dof.
However, many lenses have a "sweet spot" where clarity is best.
I think what he was saying was f8 was his cameras limit.
There is an excellent app called dofcaculator
Marty
Marc' - F36 will give you a good depth of field.... waaay too much in fact. You only need as much as is necessary to envelope the subject.
At F36 you've almost certainly got from right in front of you to infinity - [and beyond]. This will explain the infinity symbol on an old manual film camera.
F8 might only give you about a foot of focus, but if your subject fits within that foot once focused, then everything else is a waste anyway - well that's the simple version.
The problem is if you open up to F2 or the like to get max' light, probably the focus [or depth of field as it's known] won't cover your subject and the rear of it will likely be out of focus - hence "stopping" down and lengthening your shutter opening to compensate.
F36 to shoot something less than a 1/4 inch deep really is a sledgehammer to crack a nut ............... and why do I think you know this - or thought you did!!! I must admit to thinking you were a bit of a techno'-god with stuff like this??
My excuse is I'm a dinosaur [and bliddy proud of it - I've earned the right of irascibility] ... I used to teach photography back in a previous life [just as a supportive element] but then they digitalised it and my Brian - [I know, but my brain is called Brian] abjectly refused to make the switch and understand - in anyway shape or fashion.
I'm sure someone will come along and explain in better detail ... but it'll amount to the same thing.
Love and stuff.......................
Wow what camera do you have that has f36???
Paul
Quote from: marc_reusser on January 12, 2013, 04:15:00 AM
Now...still confused with the F stop though..........I thought Russ always says set it to the highest setting....which for me is rounf F36........this seems to give me very good depth of field, even on really close shots (granted, I have not tried F-8)
Marc
Russ is absolutely right, the higher f-stop, the better depth of field.
On the G12 F-8 is the highest aperture setting, and will give the best depth of field *with this camera".
So regardless of what camera or lens you use, go for the highest f-stop when you want maximum depth of field.
Thanks guys for all the help and input. Very much appreciated.
Marty: Thanks I will look into the app.
Hauk: Thanks for clearing that up, ws confused because like with your camera, my last one went to F-8, and part of the reason I bought this one was the e higher F stop capbility......and thus I thought I was now a doofus for having been concerned about that.
Andi: You accord me way to much skill and knowledge....and photography/camera settings has always been one of those things that I for some reason I absolutely can't grasp the concept of.....no matter how hard, or often, I try (color theory is another big one)......so as with numerous other things I just manage to muddle through it, or find a work-around, that gets me to the result I want. I agree that the F36 is overkill for what I was shooting.......usually I shoot t around F29...stil overkill for the boards, but it is generally easier for me to leave this setting from a prior shot...otherwise I forget to re-adjust it, and then end up with funky pics in. Later shoot...and have to reshoot (not always possible onan SBS.)
Paul: It's nothing super special. It's a Sony SLT A-57. It gave me everything that I felt/thought I needed for model nd work photogrphy. I chose it in large part for the whole image/screen/display thing (the display doesn't show what you are looking at through the lens....but rather the digital image, according to your settings/adjustments you have mde in the camera.......so the basic end product. It also has (coming from my last non-SLR camera) a lot of nice/useful functions/setting options and refinements. (Which I am still getting the hang of).
Marc, on your camera the exposures compensation (or bracketing) tool probably shows up in the viewfinder (as on Havard's camera, usually -2 to +2 stops but your fancy SLR may go from -3 to +3). When you shoot, do everything just as you have but fire off a couple of extra shots, one at +1 and the other at +2. -- Russ
Wow all this is giving my Brownie hiccups ::)
Michael
Quote from: michael mott on January 12, 2013, 06:12:24 PM
Wow all this is giving my Brownie hiccups ::)
Michael
If you use a light meter with your Brownie, the discussion about bracketing when shooting against white or black backgrounds should be valid. But even the most advanced Brownie might not be very suited for model photography...
The principles regarding depth of field is also valid for any camera. Analogue or digital, it does not matter.
But there are variables that decide how much depth of field you will get.
These are:
- f-stop
- focal length of the lens
- format of film/physical size of sensor
- subject distance
f-stop
The smaller the aperture, the better the d-o-f. It is a bit confusing that a larger number means a smaller aperture. This is because the f-stop number is really a fraction. f-8 means that the aperture opening is 1/8 of the focal length of the lens. So for maximum d-o-f we want a physical opening in the lens that is as small as possible. Some modelers have gone as far as modifying SLR lenses with pinhole apertures to get better dof. A thin blackened disk with a tiny hole is inserted in the lens, and this way it is possible to get f-stops down to maybe f-120. A small aperture lets less light pass through your lens, so you will need long exposures. That's why a tripod and good lighting is so important when shooting models. As have been mentioned already, the smallest aperture is not the optimal f-stop for anything else than the d-o-f. You get the optimal quality of a lens when using an f-stop that is the middle value for the lens.
Focal length of lens
Shorter focal lengths give better d-o-f. So a wide-angle lens gives better dof than a telephoto lens. When you zoom in you loose dof.
Format of film/size of sensor
This might be the trickiest one to explain. You might have heard that people claim that cheap compact cameras gives better d-o-f than expensive SLR cameras. Often this is true. More expensive cameras have bigger sensors. A cheap camera with a tiny sensor uses a shorter focal length to achieve the same picture angle as a camera with a larger sensor. Now I hear brains popping, so here is a link to an article describing the concept of picture angles (http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Optical/Picture_Angle_01.htm) better than I could ever do.
But you might have heard talk about "Normal lenses". This is a lens with a picture angle of about 46deg. This is comparable to what we see with our bare eyes. So the "normal lens" (or zoom set to the "normal") on a cheap camera with a small sensor will have a shorter focal length than on a more expensive one with a larger sensor. With the shorter focal length f-16 might give the same d-o-f as f-32 on the camera with the larger sensor and longer focal length. I remember that when I first started to use Hasselblad cameras in photography school I was very disappointed with the d-o-f on this very expensive camera. Up to then I had only used SLR cameras with 35 mm film. The Hasselblad uses a much larger film format, 60mmX60mm. On my SLR I used a 35mm lens as my standard lens, on the Hasselblad I chose a 90mm lens. At the time I did not realize that I would have to use a much smaller f-stop to achieve the same d-o-f with the Hasselblad. And when advancing even further up to field cameras with 4"X5" sheet film you had to use around f-90 to get comparable d-o-f with the normal lens (which is a 180mm lens if I remember correctly).
So it is not really the smaller size of the film/sensor that gives better d-o-f, but the fact that you can use a shorter focal length to achive the desired picture angle. And a shorter focal length gives better d-o-f. But remember, we are talking only d-o-f here, so I am not claiming that a smaller image sensor/film format is generally a good thing! On all other counts, bigger is better.
Subject distance
Shooting closer to the subject means less d-o-f.
Have you ever seen one of those videos that make real scenes look like models? The main trick is faking a lack of depth of field. So they simulate the fact that models are shot at much closer distance than real subjects. As modelers we do the exact opposite when trying to get as realistic model photos as possible.
A picture of a prototype scene shot in broad daylight will almost always have a depth of field that goes from the closest to the furthest objects.
A fun fact I have never seen mentioned in articles on model photography is that if you used a working scale model camera you would get exactly the same d-o-f as If shooting the real thing. Lets say you shoot an O-scale building. You place your O-scale camera at 1/48 of the distance you would have used in real life. A smaller subject distance gives less depth of field, but this is exactly compensated by the fact that the model camera´s lens have an aperture that is also 1/48 the size of the real deal. Remember, it is the smaller *physical* size of the aperture that gives better d-o-f. The f-stop *number* is the same on the model camera as on the full-size camera. The f-stop number is the relation between the focal length of the lens and the physical size of the aperture opening.
As the focal length of the model lens is scaled down as well as the sensor/film size so you get a picture angle that is the same as the prototype lens. Of course, with a film format/sensor size as small as on this model camera, you would need to make an absurd enlargement to get a decent sized print. But the depth of field would be just fine!
Was this at all helpful, or should I go stand in the corner?
Quote from: finescalerr on January 12, 2013, 01:16:02 PM
... When you shoot, do everything just as you have but fire off a couple of extra shots, one at +1 and the other at +2. -- Russ
... that's what I've learned recently (using my new camera) ... some times I take shots at -2, 0 and +2 (depends on) ... and I'm curious what similar pics would look like beeing shot in HDR mode ...
Quote from: Hauk on January 13, 2013, 12:02:40 AM
Was this at all helpful,
... yup, thanks for the explanation ...
Cheers
I have recently been working with HDR.
Sometimes combining as many as 7 images.
If you go to my webpage all the images in the "hdrrods" gallery are.
There are several in the other gslleries as well.
It is a fun process but not for every subject or personal taste.
I think i did and hdr of my willamette when i finished it too. ???
Marty
Great work Marty ...........
Those HDR images always remind me of those Photo-realist painting you see - really plays tricks with your mind. Well it does mine because I naturally "read" imagery and they act almost as a Trompe l'oeil does, but doesn't have anything [physical constructive structure] to hang onto whilst making your way around the piece - I do find them most disconcerting.
As too the Photo-realistic painting in truth. I'm always terribly impressed by them - the skills and execution: but I invariably find myself completely devoid of emotional stimulus - Now Andrew Wyeth - that photo realism sends me into some kind of drooling frenzy ... that is what one might call "good".
I'll have a further look around your web pages when I have more time - in fact I'll look forward to it.
Cheers for now.
Quote from: Andi Little on January 13, 2013, 05:43:03 AM
Great work Marty ...........
... FULL ACK ...
Quote from: Andi Little on January 13, 2013, 05:43:03 AM
I'll have a further look around your web pages ...
...ditto ...
Cheers
Very helpful and informative, Hauk!
If you are good enough with a camera and Photoshop you can make even an average model look pretty good. So forget modeling techniques and hands-on artistry; just take good photos!! -- ssuR
Thanks all, it has been very helpful, and given me a lot to work with. Very much appreciated.
...and we now continue with our regularly scheduled program.
Still with the wood.....working on replicating some of the color and texture of slime/algae build-up at the bottom areas of pilings in Salt Marshes (Right-hand,white board, is a test for coloring on painted boards near a muddy/damp field) Boards are 6mm wide.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F734290_2644947058912_1998299592_n.jpg&hash=34298f130dd6dbeeb3716e208a3f16249af3f090)
That looks REALLY good! Now, comparing your post to the original ... I see "wet" at the bottom of each ... but in the "real" post, I see wet IN the lighter green & tan areas up higher ... which I don't see on your model post.
There's something slightly missing there.
Not quite sure exactly what is slightly missing ... but, looking at the real post, I see deeper shadows in those areas, and maybe that coupled with the other visuals in the photo make me read it as "wet" ... I dunno ... what you've got looks really damn good, but ... um ... it could be wetter? I'm not kidding here (which is slightly unusual) ... just dunno how the heck to describe/express whatever the heck it is. I do think I wanna see more contrast and variation in color tones in the green and tan areas ... for whatever that blithering is worth ... or not.
PS -- Wasn't quite sure how much the very different backgrounds were affecting the perception, so checked that using the combined pic below and come away with the same impression.
-- Dallas
Dallas
I think what you're seeing is mainly the difference in lighting and processing between the two images. Marc's photo has been shot in very diffuse, soft artificial light (with two suns for extra contrast killing power), whereas the full-size photo has been shot in bright, contrasty sunlight. The full-size photo has also had the contrast cranked up (note the blocked-up shadows and the blown-out highlights), while Marc's photo is fairly low contrast (note the rather grey shadows). It's a bit hard to tell from the small reproductions, but it also looks as though the full-size image was fairly heavily sharpened, while Marc's wasn't. Most sharpening in electronic images isn't really actual sharpening, but an increase in local contrast, which fools the eye into thinking the image is sharper. One side effect of this is that fine, bright edges can tend to get the appearance of a bit of a sheen (a very good thing when you're photographing women's hair, not necessarily so much elsewhere).
Then again, seaweed does stay wet for a long time after the tide goes out....
Dallas,
Thanks for the critique and the photo work I understand what you are getting at.
Yes, there is a darker "Kelly Green" that is occuring in the uppers of the real one. And there is more contrast on the real one as well...I think this is partially due ro the lighting and deeper shadows, but it is also likely due to the color of the wood underneath. I think both can be somewhat mitigated by a darker wood color/undercoat on mine (I just used a scrap I had at hand), as well as by applying more of the dark wash I used on the lower, in those areas. The wet is tough to do at scale, because the real world material is absorbant and very finely textured, and the wet is retianed there-in....whereas by using some sort of gloss or wet-effects on the model piece would result with the gloss sitting on the surface...and most likely causing it to look plastic. I think if the above additional color and the additional shdow wash were employed, it would go a good piece towards a wet look.
All that said.......I was not so much after replicating the post in the photo exactly, but rather trying to figure outhow to do/create the texture, and what colors would mimmick those seen on the post.....especially that orangy/yellow/brown/green in the center portion.
Dallas,
I had athought, that might solve the varied green color, as well as the wet look......I don't have any on hand at the moment, but a dry or light brushing of Tamiya gloss "Clear Green" might work.
Apples and Pears Dallas, ... the two images you've placed against each other are aberrant for no other reason than they are simply two different photographs.
I can see what you mean though, and I believe what you're trying to infer is the lack of contrast that's evident in Marc's pic's.
This reaches into the essence of the problem for modellers [and Artists], and that is how does one render a three dimensional image in two dimensions - in modelling one re-gains the third dimension but loses the "scale". Scale being one of the basic elements of Aerial perspective [there are 5 others]. It also means that those 5 remaining elements are compressed to such a point that to isolate and re-render them in a cohesive and empirical manner is getting on to be nigh impossible!!?
This is why when someone gets pretty close we are fooled into thinking that what we're seeing is indeed real - and Marc is close, separate those two images, look at the plank in isolation and you'd be happy to believe it?
This problem you've identified though can be cured with a couple of techniques - Fine Art 2D based but could be made to work here! "Contre-jour" basically a French impressionist technique meaning "against the light" or this instance "silhouette" or more applicably "Chiaroscuro" an Italian tenet again meaning against the light but this time rather as an exercise in counterpoint.
Basically one would need to increase ones tonal range [Value] and be prepared to use a lot more "Chroma" [Luminosity] and then come to terms with the fact that now it looks great in photographs it looks for all the world like a ten-bob-tart in reality!!
It's a huge balancing act - but it can be done. I do believe Marc stated the other day that colour theory was a bit of a weakness??
And that's the problem here - it's not modelling skill, that in itself is a platitude. The problem is if he pursues this he won't be in Kansas anymore.
I could go on as it's a massive area of understanding, esoteric and subjective in parts. But to take a reality and compress it, then reproduce that with one less dimension and with all the mechanical constraints of [by comparison] pretty poor technological processes - well, the fact that the pole doesn't look just right is pretty forgiveable I think!!
It's a fantastic field of interest, and one that all modellers bump up against eventually, it could do with exploring, and perhaps a bit of understanding too as it would make all your "pin washes and modulations etc "sing far more loudly and very much clearer!!!
I'm going now before I really paint myself into a corner - PS .... Its snowing!
Andi, you have stopped taking the pills again haven't you?
It all sounds wonderful but don't understand a word ................. it would be great if you started a stand alone thread on all this colour theory starting from first principles and developing the process .
You obviously know and understand the process inside out as well as being able to express it.............. so share !
Marc,
I like the post as I said will be "borrowing that " ............... re Dallas comment just a thought but how about adding some gloss medium to the mix , that way it integral with it rather than lying on top
Andi; Wow...fascinating and confusing...I will have to re-read it a couple more times...but thank you for taking the time to write it all. The one thing I can say regarding the painterly effects and the pen washes and CM. ....is that as you note, there is a big chance of it quickly getting charicaturish or stylized (which has been railed against as looking wrong, interperative, over done...artistic but not realistic...etc.)....and the other real danger of simply getting ove-rworked....which happens all to easily and quickly.
Gordon; Not sure that will work, as you will tint the entire mix...thus losing the color variation.....My thinkin is, if you dry brush, or only dab it in certain areas, you will get those areas of dark green, and the tonal/color variation like in the pic...If you thin it enough as a wash, you will get the darker tone/green pigments settling in the recesses and nooks......thus possibly giving you a bit of a shadow effect or a bit of a highliting effect.
Quote from: marc_reusser on January 14, 2013, 01:24:12 AM
All that said.......I was not so much after replicating the post in the photo exactly, but rather trying to figure outhow to do/create the texture, and what colors would mimmick those seen on the post.....especially that orangy/yellow/brown/green in the center portion.
The textures & all are excellent ... but I figured you'd be interested in a "hyper-critical" response, so looked at it that way for kicks ...
Quote from: marc_reusser on January 14, 2013, 01:52:26 AM
I had athought, that might solve the varied green color, as well as the wet look......I don't have any on hand at the moment, but a dry or light brushing of Tamiya gloss "Clear Green" might work.
Here's what I think I would try ... (which could be completely wrong):
-- Vallejo Sepia and/or Brown Ink, diluted about 1 part ink to 3 parts water ... let it soak thru the texture materials ... give a second shot of that in some areas ...
-- The diluted acrylic inks will tend to dry with a touch of sheen ... but not as radical or potentially over-bearing as using a gloss would ...
-- Then mix some colors lighter than the tones in the areas you're working with Vallejo GLAZE medium (which dries quite flat if not overworked). Mix these fairly thin and "wet-drybrush" those colors over the areas, which have been inked ... (just like dry-brushing, but thinner paint mix, damp brush, wipe out MOST of the color on paper ... nice way to create transparent layers using opaque paints) ...
-- Let that all dry a LOT ... glaze medium produces a nice flat finish (which will be on the SURFACE above the inked areas which would have a touch of sheen) ... but DON'T overwork the glaze, because it will go gloss if you do that. Let it dry fully before moving on ref. that concern.
-- After that's all dry ... mix Vallejo Green Ink (hideous by itself) with Sepia Ink to get a nice mossy green ... mix that with a bit of water and glaze medium and apply that like a "filter" to unify the tones in the green areas. In the tan areas, probably a touch of Vallejo "Brown" ink (which is quite reddish) and the Green ... which, subject to Andi's correction, will tend to "cancel" each other a bit (red & green being opposites) ... and use that in the brownish areas ... and, of course, some sort of feathering to the transition.
Gee, it started out like I had a "simple" idea! 8) (And it still might be 27 less steps than some of the things you do!) ;D
Cool stuff!
Dallas
Marc your continued strive for creating realistic effects is really rather mind boggling. After reading all the comments from the picture of the post that you posted, My thoughts for what they are worth without all the technical details of which I know very little, is that your post look real but dry so the game here would be to make it look wetter. and that might be a simple as taking another photograph. with just one sun. in fact it would be interesting for me to see the post shown photographed in a number of different lighting conditions side by side. Then we could compare apples to apples as Andi has indicated that we are not.
I do agree that we try to compress nature and unfortunately molecules is molecules and they don't change! Ask any live steam guys.
Michael
Fresh from being raked over the coals for my last moss post ;D, I figured I would stick out what was left of my neck... :)
The left board was done as a texture test to represent the type of green thicker moss/algae shown in the 4 ref. images on the left (this is also sim to what one often sees on bricks and concrete)...the sample to the point shown was a simple 3 step process, additional shading of darker greens or yellows could be done with acrylic or oil dry brushing or washes. The right hand board was a test to try and do the heavier dryer greening build-up (Boards in photo are 6mm wide)
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Re. the last moss post coloring....I think it can all be easily resolved with some use of Green and Burnt umber artists oils. Will give it a go later on.
....and yes, Dallas, I do enjoy the hyper critical response. :)
Marc
"And moss grows fat on a rolling stone ..." ;D
So, is this stuff (the texturing) a matter of very careful layering of ground foams ... or some other textures? Or a secret magazine project? Or ... what's the deal? (How much more can we arsk about it?) ??? 8)
Whatever the heck you're doing it definitely has the "delicate" and spongy look of moss. -- Dallas
It is for a mag project.....but I can tell you it's a no brainer, even Gordon could do it ;D
It's not ground up foam....I tried several iterations using foam, and none worked for an overal finish ...it was okay to use to create the one-off extreme growth, or in very limited combo with something like this method...but in general in my experience the foam is clumsy, too springy, too hard to apply evenly and to difficult to control, and generally out of scale (working in 1/35).
For the base process, it uses one color of Vallejo paint, two AK products, and a mystery ingredient ;D....sorry but all I can say at the moment. :-[
Wow....that green is REALLY bright in the sunlight! :o
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Marc, this looks unbelievable realistic. Maybe I would expect the wood to be darker/moist at the alga area too.
Volker
Volker, You are correct, there should be a darker area, however I am waiting till I set it in the scene, to get a better feel of how much, and to use it to blend/transition into the ground around it as well.
I know you guys are already thinking, "That boy ain't right in the head"....but, while straightening up the bench, I came across this pic of a salt marsh walkway, and figured I would give it a quick go.
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"That boy ain't right in the head"....
NO
NEVER!
NOT! Once has that thought ever entered my mind ::) ::)
MPH
That walkway is great, what an interesting subject to model!
In progress.....
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The mystery ingredient wouldn't happen to be Baking Soda would it?
Tiny amounts applied carefully can build texture like that when using acrylic paints when dusted onto the wet primer layer.
Woodland Scenics Hydrocal plaster.......mixed in...not sprinkled.
Marvellous ... always, Marvellous.
I can't remember: Is this a diversion from your assignment projects or is it one of them? -- Russ
Thank you so very much Andi.
Russ, the moss, and its wariants, is for the third article in a series on creating "Rotting Wood", (And the whole series is one of the demos I will be doing in April)
Quote from: marc_reusser on February 22, 2013, 08:55:54 PM
Woodland Scenics Hydrocal plaster.......mixed in...not sprinkled.
Very inspiring thread! Now I'd like to practise some of these hints to improve my own project ;)
Have read your first article in the ModelFan magazine. Great! Can't wait for the next issue ...
Cheers, Peter
Thank you Peter.
Glad it was of interest. I haven't seen it yet, so I have no idea what it says or looks like. :)
Marc
It wouldn't be "business as usual" if I didn't wake up this morning, and decide on a whole new direction on a build...that of course creates tons more work. And so I spent the day doing flaking and peeling paint on the hull exterior...still a bunch of rusty metal bits/details to add now; and more weathering. Oh joy! :/ :)
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Marc,
Quote from: marc_reusser on February 24, 2013, 02:33:28 AM
It wouldn't be "business as usual" if I didn't wake up this morning, and decide on a whole new direction on a build...that of course creates tons more work. And so I spent the day doing flaking and peeling paint on the hull exterior...
... glad to read, that I'm not the only one suffering from this way of modelling ... ;D ... looking forward to further progress on this ... 8)
Cheers
Hello Marc
understand this well I can, but if I would not there the discipline I would not come in my cave monastery priority.
But a great work makes you want more.
Is anything ever really finished to the complete satisfaction of it's modeler/creator?
I think the whole thing looks wrong and you should throw it out and start from scratch. At least two more times. -- Russ
Quote from: finescalerr on February 24, 2013, 11:56:44 AM
I think the whole thing looks wrong and you should throw it out and start from scratch. At least two more times. -- Russ
So you don't want Marc to put it in a box and give it to you for safe keeping ? It is really that bad ?
I wish I had your eye for what looks good and what doesn't . Here's me thinking that it looks great . I guess I need to completely revise my way at viewing other people's models .
Nick
Two good ideas, Nick. Let's embarrass Marc into building multiples of each diorama and giving us the "rejects". For those helpful suggestions you may come out of the corner ... for a little while. -- Russ
Sorry lads...the waste bin has first dibs. :)
No problem Marc, we will drop in and empty it for you !
That's what we do with Barney ;)
Marc,
Quote from: marc_reusser on February 24, 2013, 02:33:28 AM
It wouldn't be "business as usual" if I didn't wake up this morning, and decide on a whole new direction on a build...that of course creates tons more work. And so I spent the day doing flaking and peeling paint on the hull exterior...still a bunch of rusty metal bits/details to add now; and more weathering. Oh joy! :/ :)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F563520_2811600825152_1818933300_n.jpg&hash=729135f55475332c01532535824395b66274bf9b)
.. another thing that came to my mind, looking at this pic (above) several times ... ::) .. I do not find these orange coloured (algae?) stains as realistic and convincing as usual, regarding your other comparable modelling ... IMHO they seem to be spread
too randomly across the hull ... ??? ... me thinks it would eventually look better, if you'd place them only in the upper (more dry) area of the hull - and place a larger amount of spots together like in your other reference pic:
Quote from: marc_reusser on January 22, 2013, 03:44:22 AM
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Cheers
Hi Marc, I thought it was perfect but it's just getting better!
But I tend to agree with Gerald, the orange stains seem a little too evenly spaced, making them seem somewhat artifiicial. Better chuck it in the bin.
Or you could keep it and just do what Gerald said -either way is good. ;D
Thanks for the critique Gerald.
I was trying not to overdo the orange at this stage. It is one of those things that I was concerened could easily, and quickly get out of hand...especially because the orange offers a very stark contrast.....sort of like chipping and rust do. I wanted to wait till the rest of the details were added, and the hull was set in the ground, before doing any more weathering. (this side of the hull will be buried about 1 board below the missing plank; just below eher the blue ends.)
The other item I was dealing with, was the reference photos I was using for the orange.
Note on Image_1 that the orancge spots are pretty sparse and scattered though there are small groupings along and on top of the hull edge.
In image 2, there are more dense clusters on the hull side, but mist of the heavy groupings here ar on top of the missing boards. I copied this heavy effect of the orange on top of the boards at the missing one in my hull, but it does not show as well in the model image, due to angle.
I will definitely add some more, as I get a better handle on the scenery, and there are some elements to balance the color/look.
Thanks John, appreciate the input. Yes, the randomness is something that is difficult to achieve...like you and gerald not, more spots and some larger areas wwould help. It's very nerving to do/add, as it can quickly go wrong :)
I have have left it as is for this Article (as I am out of time), but as both you gents seem to feel strongly, I will add give a go at adding more for the next one, where it well be set in the base. :)
Dont know if this image helps or hurts the discussion; but as time is up, here is as it stands for this go-round. :)
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One more on this theme. One a snappy of the post test piece. Not perfect by a long shot, but time to move on.
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I like this view.
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Beautiful! I like all the rusty metal bits.
Coming together well Marc, it's a looking good and worth all the work you have put into this piece!
FWIW ... Orange alge spots, when I did these on the "wall" I found the best way of both getting random spots and a variation in thier size was to use the "flicking a brush" approach, this combined with some masking to control the area effected and some increase in size afterwards with some additional brushwork.
Thanks Ray!
Gordon; Thanks, great tip. Will give it a go. (Suppose you now want a foot-note or credit ;) )
Marc,
I'm going d'accord with your concern that this effect can easily be overdone, apart from the circumstances that you are working under (time) pressure in this case and so aren't given leeway for further approaches ... 8)
Quote from: marc_reusser on February 25, 2013, 04:24:54 PM
Dont know if this image helps or hurts the discussion; but as time is up, here is as it stands for this go-round. :)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F535467_2817536453539_911499679_n.jpg&hash=7beeacd0672289ebd1ec85a73931cb0a71fe7e18)
... my impression is, that regarding this pic the yellow spots look quite right especially in the lower section of the hull, but I still would see some room for improvement along the middle section ... ::)
Nevertheless a great piece of modelling!
Cheers
I still think you should throw it out and start over. That excuse about "no time" is flimsy. But, assuming your excuse to be true, I would consider the results most satisfactory. -- Russ
My life runs on "flimsy excuses", copius amounts of coffee, and Xanax. :D
I got a nice and very helpful note (as well as some photos), and a Wiki link, from forum member Bill Gill re. the orange lichen...."Xanthoria parietina"....very useful and interesting (at least to me) ....and thought it might be of use/interest to some others as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthoria_parietina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthoria_parietina)
You might be the only modeler actually trying to model lichen! (Rather than use lichen to represent stuff that doesn't look like that) (Does this make any sense?) ??? 8) -- Dallas
Quote from: Malachi Constant on February 26, 2013, 09:54:11 PM
You might be the only modeler actually trying to model lichen! (Rather than use lichen to represent stuff that doesn't look like that) (Does this make any sense?) ??? 8) -- Dallas
No .
Outstanding - top marks for detail and attention to those little bits and pieces that are often missed out .
Barney
Quote from: shropshire lad on February 27, 2013, 12:13:20 AM
Quote from: Malachi Constant on February 26, 2013, 09:54:11 PM
You might be the only modeler actually trying to model lichen! (Rather than use lichen to represent stuff that doesn't look like that) (Does this make any sense?) ??? 8) -- Dallas
No .
Yeah, well that figures ... I speak English as a foreign language! ;D
For many years, modelers here have used (actual) lichen to model trees and bushes and such ... and it's not very convincing, because it always looks like lichen!
Now, Marc is actually modeling lichen ... but in scale ... new twist ...
Quote from: Malachi Constant on February 28, 2013, 12:34:01 PM
Quote from: shropshire lad on February 27, 2013, 12:13:20 AM
Quote from: Malachi Constant on February 26, 2013, 09:54:11 PM
You might be the only modeler actually trying to model lichen! (Rather than use lichen to represent stuff that doesn't look like that) (Does this make any sense?) ??? 8) -- Dallas
No .
Yeah, well that figures ... I speak English as a foreign language! ;D
For many years, modelers here have used (actual) lichen to model trees and bushes and such ... and it's not very convincing, because it always looks like lichen!
Now, Marc is actually modeling lichen ... but in scale ... new twist ...
Oh , they've been doing the same over here for just as long . It usually always looks rubbish . I also use a type of lichen for my bushes . But that doesn't look rubbish . Well , not to me it doesn't .
Nick
What if it doesn't look at all like rubbish and even looks terrific ... but still IS rubbish? Have you ever considered that possibility? Of course not. That is why you have spent so much time in the corner. -- ssuR
Quote from: shropshire lad on February 28, 2013, 02:21:12 PM
Oh , they've been doing the same over here for just as long . It usually always looks rubbish . I also use a type of lichen for my bushes . But that doesn't look rubbish . Well , not to me it doesn't .
Nick
Well, if you rarely, if ever, post any work, how are we to judge. ;D ;D
M
Beautiful work Marc.
That boat looks more like a sunken boat than a real sunken boat looks!!!
Does that make sense?
Jerry
Quote from: marc_reusser on March 01, 2013, 02:30:51 AM
Quote from: shropshire lad on February 28, 2013, 02:21:12 PM
Oh , they've been doing the same over here for just as long . It usually always looks rubbish . I also use a type of lichen for my bushes . But that doesn't look rubbish . Well , not to me it doesn't .
Nick
Well, if you rarely, if ever, post any work, how are we to judge. ;D ;D
M
You can't , so you'll just have take my word for it . I'll take some with me to Gordon's tomorrow and you can judge for yourself . Oh , sorry ,I forgot , you're not coming !
I'll let Gordon have a look and he can give me a frank appraisal .
Nick
Fantastic Marc! I hadn't realized you were back on this. The greenery and weathering looks awesome.
I just got the Verlinden 1/35 WW2 Tug Boat (waterline) model. Not sure if it's a good kit, but looks fun regardless. You should look into it.
Marc, yesterday was our first sunny day in the darkest winter since 60 years. Of course I had to stumble over this:
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Come on, give us some close ups of your lichen ... ;D
Volker
To be honest: There's a harbour but no salt water. And this switch box should never ever get under water.
We were still under a blanket of 24 inches of snow on the 24th march.
Michael