Morning all, although having posted a few comments etc on this forum this is my first thread, which I am posting after some "gentle" chiding from MR.
This model came about following Marc posting some photographs of rail cranes and developed into a small challenge on the Gnatterbox forum http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=5908 ..... where you can see lots of other cranes.
As I indicated on another thread I was reluctant to post these details as the photo quality is not that great .......... but here goes, it will not be a SBS more just a series of shots showing the build sequence, with a few comments along the way.
This was the photo that triggered the whole thing
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Although the origonal was probably built on 600mm gauge track because I wanted to build it to Gn15 standards my version is built to 1/24 scale running on 16.5mm track representing 15" gauge. I would stress that this my version, not a scale model and the main aim was to try and capture the character of these things.
Here are some shots of the initial build
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After getting the basics put together, I then started to concentrate on getting some details and character added
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All the wire ropes are plastic micro rod and I now wish I had used Marc's suggestion of pre-rolling the rod under a file to add some marking to represent the twisted wire ... as I will now have to try and represent this in the painting stage.
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These are shots of where the project is currently , I have been putting the paint job off because I really can't decide what colour and also what stage of decay to show
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As the challenge ends in a few weeks I am going to have to sort the paint job soon, will post updates when I have got something to show.
Gordon
You're entering some pretty creative territory, Gordon.
Your work is beautiful. Scratchbuilding at its best!
Great job so far. Let's see more!
Gordon
Very nice indeed. Looking forward to the next post when the painting starts.
Jerry
Agreed... very nice indeed Gordon.
Just a thought concerning the cable. You might check out the model airplane supplier. I picked up some stainless twisted cable, I think it was around .020-.025" dia. a few years back for the control line planes. It's tough stuff and passes for miniature cable. The only drawback is it tends to be stiff so takes some work to form it.
Paul
I really like this build. Nice proportions and detail. Very inspirational.
QuoteAs the challenge ends in a few weeks I am going to have to sort the paint job soon,
That's sort of how those things work...if your going to instigate it and be the "fearless leader"...you also have to suffer with actually finishing something. ;) ;D ;D ;D
Marc
Looks great so far! The outriggers are a nice touch.
Thanks folks for the positive comments .... wasn't to sure how a "freelance model " would be reviewed here.
Will post some painting updates next week ............ Thanks Marc, for just adding another few turns of pressure on me ;)
Gordon,
Very nice job. A couple of questions.
The rivits on the boom look like styrene, I assume your rolling your own??
The hook on the block, where did you find it and is it available in different sizes??
Thanks
Rick Marty
Rick,
rivets are thin slices of plastic micro rod, placed with MEC Pac , when dry lightly sanded to level them off and then ..... following a hint posted by Marc burnished with fibre glass brush to lightly round them off.
The hook was formed from a 16mm scale Cambrian Models piece from the spares box, it was a bit thin so I beefed it up with a layer of 40thou plasticard.
Hope that helps
Gordon, you have captured the pure essence of the little crane without getting lost in perfect prototype accuracy. It sure helps take away modeler's procrastination (if I could find just one more photo of the underneath...). The paint and finishing will now make the model.
John P
Hi,
While most of the crane will only be lightly weathered, I did want to add some variation so planing to weather ballast tank a bit more heavily.
So here are some photos of experiments I have been trying.
This has been done following the standard (Cranky) technique for first couple of stages all of which are pretty well documented .... base colour, variations of reds,browns,blacks then sponged on .
I then went off on a tangent as I wanted to try and get some rust bubbling through paint ....
So next stage was to use some "rust" pigment powder (instead of salt), placing some small but thick piles where I want rust , then fixing that in place.
Then this was given a couple of coats of hairspray and when dry a few mists coats of base colour then some areas lightened slightly with further sprayed coats.
Then when dry, dampened with water and some areas rubbed with stiff brush, if you try this you will find pigment obviously colours whole surface but you can mop up/control the stain effect with dry tissue ,etc. and this is where I have ended up. Bubbling rust thro' paint ..... well nearly ?
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I am hoping that this variation of the salt technique could be of interest to painters with more skill than me who can refine the process to try and take the experiment a bit further.
(yes I can see, now, where I missed a seam ... more clean up work !!)
Gordon
Gordon that looks very believable. It looks like the finish I need to work up for weathering my bridge beams. I need to try that method. Thanks for sharing.
John
Fabulous. Great eye candy. Keep it coming please.
Thanks Cranky coming from you ,with your paint finishes, thats appreciated.
Couple of shots about 30% of the way in to the painting, have done some chipping via H/spray technique, as well as some filters and ... what I think is called mapping, filling in some of chipped areas with different colours, this has not gone as well as I would like as I got the contrast too strong, will try to sort
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Next stages, I think, are to sort out some of the filter/chipping issues then seal for some pin washes and the detail painting of various parts.
Alternative thoughts and advice would be very welcome
Gordon, I think rusting is in the air in 2010. That's beautiful! Great work.
Gordon,
it is coming along very nicely. There is one thing bothering me, the weathering/rust on the counterweight is not fitting in with the weathered finish of the rest.
Jacq
Quote from: jacq01 on January 30, 2010, 10:02:20 AM
There is one thing bothering me, the weathering/rust on the counterweight is not fitting in with the weathered finish of the rest.
Jacq
Jacq, you are correct .... and I will probably have to sort.
The plan was to have the counterweight, which is a water ballast tank slightly rustier than the rest due to the different construction (light steel plate as opposed to girders) and the presence of the water. However the difference is too great currently, a combination of lightening the weather on the tank and adding a bit more to the rest should close the gap to a more realistic level ..... I hope?
When I post next updates please let me know if you think I am getting any closer
One photo to show where I have got after further filters and some general washes in an attempt to bring together the ballast tank and the rest of the crane as per Jacq's comments
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Any comments are welcome as since my previous modelling experiences the paint materials and techniques have certainly expanded and the more thoughts and direction I can get will be a great help.
thanks
Gordon,
the top of the battery should have no rust..... Same for the parts of the electric motor. This looks imo a lot better, but still too shiny. Do you plan to add dirt and dust?
Jacq
Thanks for the feedback Jacq.
Again your right, will sort out rust on battery tomorrow ..... probably will tone down rust stains on electric motor, it is made of steel so happy to justify some rust!
Haven't done any pin washes yet so next stage will be a satin coat, pin washes and then a flat coat to kill any gloss.
Like the idea of adding some dirt just not to sure how to do it yet?
Keep up the critique ... its like being back university again ;)
It looks beautiful, although I agree with the points made by Jacq. Take care of those issues and you've nailed it, imho.
For me, FWIW, right now (last image)
I think it is to monochromatic.
There should be some subtle color and texture variations.
At the least with the cables (should be somewhat silver if in use) and other materials.
More so the color bothers me, sorry it is just too much of the blue.
I would usually offer some more recommendations when giving negative feedback
Right now I dont have any more or the time to offer some visual clues.
Not having an exact prototype here does not help, but some of the images might be of an assist.
I know you can improve this up to the level of the build!
Hope this helps :(
-Marty
Marty,
valid comments and I will try answer factually rather than defensively.......
Monochromatic, yes I was hoping the weathering would alter this fact but I was wrong .... may be able to adjust slightly with additional items to add some colour ( rags, tools, etc) I was concerned that on a model that is only about 3 inches by 2 inches too much colour would look wrong as well.
Cables, the plan was to end displaying model as semi abandoned in a siding, hence the cable would be at best rusty rather showing burnished steel ..... think the real issue here is that I did not add some texture to the plastic rod before putting in place, this would have made a significant difference at this stage I think. (re MR's ealier comments)
The fact of the matter is that in simple terms I may be at the end of the second year of a 5 year course in scratch building but I am only at the end of the first term of 5 years when it comes to painting and finishing!
Already learnt a few things for when I try to paint the roller ;-
1. lighten the tonal ranges considerably at the early stages as subsequent filters and weathering tends to darken the final finish. (thought I had learned this lesson, but appears not to have sunk in)
2. The old adage less is more is really true when applying different paint effects, less chipping less rust .... its always easier to add more its almost impossible to take it away.
The thought has crossed my mind to just bin this or at least take all the paint off and start again. However decided that I will try to correct some bits where I can and then accept that for this one its the best i can do , then keep it on the shelf to remind me of what I should do better, when painting the next model.
Thanks for the feedback folks, and feel free to keep it coming, its made me ask myself some searching questions and helped me focus & understand where I need to put some more practice in
EDIT:
Marty, been sorting out my lighting set up ,this is slighty more accurate and not as "blue"
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that shot is better!
Glad my nonsense was of help.
-Marty
Gordon,
Sorry for no input on this before, but I couldn't really see where you were going with it....so now that I see, here are hopefully some constructive comments (at least for the next time).
A dark shade of blue, Green, or Red ...are tough colors to rust and weather...because the effect is hard to see against/in contrast to the color, which makes it is easy to overdo........so one really needs to start in the tonal variations of the paint.
If something has been sitting out and rusted/weathered as much as you are representing, then the paint would be far from as dark as you have it. So right of the bat the paint would be lighter in hue....if not from sun bleaching, then from rain and other elements causing the paint to fade and even develop a lighter hazy surface.
I also suggest taking "scale effect" into account when using dark colors.....meaning that the color is lightened by at least 10% to begin with.
Another thing to consider is that some surfaces...primarily upper, side and unprotected surfaces will wear and fade more readily/rapidly than undersides and protected areas. So paint will likely be darker or at least closer to the original hue in the latter.
Some surfaces will also simply fade more or less than others, or take on a different hue, for what may appear to be no reason whatsoever....but this can for instance be attributed to things like poor subsurface prep, different metal/construction material, different heating & cooling (or moisture on one side like in the water weight)....or maybe the thing was always parked with the same side to the sun, or near some bushes /trees....the list can go on.
Lastly we want to consider lighting.....of the "model"....in order to get a bit more "pop/punch" and depth out of the model we need to consider playing mother nature just a bit and sing some tricks like pre-shading (darkening of seams, panel lines, undercuts, etc. using a dark color or black)...panel shading (lightening up the color a cit towards the center of panels)...and even Color Modulation (which incorporates aspects of everything in the last couple of paragraphs).
[Filters.....NOT washes.... can also be used to get more depth and variation out of the surfaces/parts, but that is a whole other topic, and should not be used in lieu of the above, but in addition to.]
I may be wrong...but I am going to take a guess and say you basically applied your color coat in one layer/coat. I would recommend spraying your color coat in a minimum of two, preferably 3 light coats. The light coats will allow you better control, and the ability to adjust opacity (this is helpful when pre-shading is used).....it will also allow you to lighten or change the hue of your color on subsequent coats....this will help you with 'panel/surface shading' and getting some variation/fading out of surfaces.
Because the coats are thin, you do not need a lot of dry time between them......at least in my experience using Tamiya or Vallejo, by the time I have quickly rinsed the AB, lightened up and re-thinned the paint color, the and reloaded the AB...the layer is dry enough and ready to go.
Another obvious advantage of thin coats is that all your hard work building & detailing the model will show nicely and crisply........this also helps to then obtain crisper, more defined, and more plausible weathering effects.
Then once the paint is on:
If you did hairspray you can begin the chipping (BTW. Thin coats will also give you "finer" more controllable HS-chipping.) Don't wait too long, as the longer you wait the harder it is to chip.
Or you can move on to (in a slightly interchangeable order depending on effect desired and comfort with techniques):
Mapping (if desired)
Filters
Fading
Chipping (painting on positive and/or negative chips) , scratches, wear, etc.
Pin Washes
Rust
Dust & dirt
Oil/grease
HTH,
Cheers,
Marc
Thanks Marc for taking the time to put together such a detailed comment.
"but I couldn't really see where you were going with it" ......... succinctly sums up what the problem probably was, I did not really understand or know where I was going with it!
I did go down the route of light coats and lightening colors to highlight but as the very first one was too dark everything after that was going to be wrong!
I'll go away and re-read your comments and think about how to approach the roller.
It's a tough call to try and choose a painting approach. Each has its benefits and issues:
For intance, when chipping with hairspray I find subsequent fading, filters and washes much harder to do, because I don't want them getting on the nice matte chipped surface/areas (because the oil paint can make them seem satin...whick is okay for some rust and wear...but not on others).
For the Color Modulation method does one do the entire model in a black/dark shade....or doesa one think ahead and try to use more of a pre-shading approach? ( personally only use concepts and aspects of CM...but not necessarily the whole technique...or if I do, I prefer it on a more subtle level....but then I have only done a couple of projects along it's line)
Panel fading with the color coat, or fading with artist oils afterward?
...and there are others....and none of these is necessarily a clear cut "one way or the other" option.....
One trick you should consider trying with your filters and washes (and even rust streaking), is that of placing the small dab of whatever artist oil color (or ABT-502 color) you are using on some cardboard or chipboard (the stuff backs of pads are made of), and letting some of the linseed oil carrier wick out onto/into it....then use some of this dab to mix your filters/washes........the removal of some of the linseed oil will make the wash/filter have less of a sheen (be more flat)...so when it does get onto the matt rust reas it will not show nearly as much.
Another thing you can do, is instead of using artists oils for those small dabs of rust that you "pull down" with a turp moistened brush, to create rust streaks, you can try using Humbrol flat enamels (don't know if Model-Master oils will work the same...have not tried). These dry pretty much dead flat...which is what rust streaks should be. [Though I have a good number of Humbrol paints and do on occasion use them, I find that their containers make them unwieldy and really a PIA to get them thoroughly mixed before use].
MR
Maybe you can expand on "mapping" some more I am a little foggy on this step???
Thanks
Gil
You're trying to make me suffer aren't you Gil?...okay..let me write up something.
MR
"Mapping" look forward to the SBS Marc ..... it will help with my limited understanding of the subject which is based almost entirely on this
http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=370.msg4451#msg4451
Oh, the crane in having a repaint - although I admit, like most of us when in trouble we revert to what we know & understand, this time I've gone back to Gouache paint and graphite for most of the weathering ... pictures will follow.
Gordon ,
Have you looked at the MIG Productions Forum yet ? There is a wealth of information there going into the various techniques Marc has listed .
If it were me , I would be inclined to put your crane to one side and try some of these new techniques on some other model that isn't as valuable . Whilst most of the techniques are reversable it would be a shame to spoil the crane after all the work you have put into it .
Of course , I never take my own advice !
Nick
Nick,
yes I spend far too much time on The MIG site, and that is probably the problem - trying to run before I can walk!
Its good advice on the crane, but I do need to finish it soon - so as I said I have reverted to my old methods. As far as advance techniques are concerned going to dig out some old kits and practice on them, modern problem want the answer now, but not prepared to put the work and practice in first.
I blame people like Marc, Chuck & Cranky for posting these wonderful finishes ... seem to remember you may may be to blame as well , i.e. that narrow gauge loco, etc.
OK crane given re-paint, its ended up not exactly where I first imagined but the fun is rapidly going out of this project ... so its time to accept that I need more practice to start to get close to what I do want to achieve.
Was going to strip origonal paint off but decided that i would try to use previous coat as base and respray with lighter colours and then use hair spray for chipping, followed with gouache watercolours for some weathering graphite for the worn steel edges .
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its looks better than previous attempt in natural light, but finish is still a bit overdone and "muddy" - but it's time to move on.
Off to do some homework & practice for a couple of weeks .... then the roller
I do like the color better, and I also like how, and where, you have done the wear areas down to the metal.
Don't sweat it, we all fall victim to overworking stuff....I know I have.
MR
I like it!
I think you have done very well!
The improvements really helped.
I also agree it is time to move on, dont overdo a great finish!
-Marty
Yep, don't touch it any further.................. :D
Jacq
An improvement, and I'm glad you were able to achieve that. -- Russ
I agree.
One final shot, with stabilisers fitted & painted......
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Thanks for the feedback,& suggestions, hopefully you will see at least some of these incorporated in the painting of the roller .
Continuing to to be a very, VERY - nice job Gordon. Those outriggers and feet really do help to complete the illusion.
Struggling with mine at the minute....... I'm at that - "doesn't matter what I do it goes wrong stage"!!!
However I take great heart from seeing yours complete and will remain steadfast.
Cheers bloke............................
Those look great. I like the weathering on them, and the fact that you chose to make them a different color (like they were salvaged from another piece of equipment.)
MR
Gordon................. please excuse me? - But rather than open a whole new thread I thought you might not mind too much if I just threw this into your pool of light for a moment?
My contribution then to the Gn15 Crane challenge over on the Gnatterbox [are we allowed to cross pollinate boards here?].................... anyhoo - here you go -;-
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Tah-daah!!!
Gordon, that is coming out nice! A neat little piece.
Andi, that is great too! What an amazing design! I have to ask...where did the chains come from?
WOW Andi...Sweet...really cool design, I like the paint work and weathering on all the raw and painted metal surfaces. The only thin that bugs me, and detracts, is the undersized hook and cables.
Marc
Both great looking cranes!
Andi, I agree with Marc about the hook and cable.
Very interesting crane Andi.... has something of a steam-punk feel about it. Well done...
Paul
Thanks all for your responses and interest, I take it as praise indeed.
Chuck - The chains are from a 1/9th scale kit of a Ducati...... probably a Revell or Italeri kit as they shared tooling on those, it was the devils own job to get to work as a chain and apart from posing potential wouldn't trust it to work much beyond that - others of course could probably make a much better fist of it.
Marc - et al, Yes you're right of course, the hook does look unnervingly like something a Captain would brandish [tic-toc]. It looks nowhere near as bad in the flesh however - but Ill admit it needs to be changed as it does look pretty unconvincing.
In mine own defence this pic' qualifies as a drive by shooting - mainly shot and posted to document a finished project before the challenge deadline - this resulted in a less than ideal set-up which necessitated the aperture being opened up two [2] stops, me-thinks this has created a degree of burnout on the more exposed details - as excuses go - best I've got to hand.
Paul - Thanks, actually quite pleased with the Steam punk comment, although I think since that movement gained momentum it has gotton a bit fragrant and confectious. All my builds at the moment are geared towards a layout -should it ever get built? And this crane is a direct character within it - made by a gifted engineer within a Blacksmiths agricultural workshop first half of last century - 1900/1950 !!!!! ............. I know it's a stretch - but work with me here!
Thanks again all........... I appreciate your interests..............
Andi, how dare you just gatecrash my thread.................. with that marvellous "little" model, I really do like it, certainly has your own special unique style .
I happen to have a spare hook that has a little more "beef" in it, I will put in the post and you can see if it is any use .............. its way of thanks for sorting me out with Model T engine.
For the rest of you, Andi will be busy over the week-end puting together a specific thread so we can show all all the entrants, finished or not, in one place. Andi or I will add the link to this thread so you can see the variety and imagination that has gone into this little challenge.
Gordon,
I think your crane finished up beautifully! Great modeling job.
Andy,
That crane is really unique, I love it! Great job.
Rick
Quote from: Andi Little on February 19, 2010, 12:16:56 AM
Thanks, actually quite pleased with the Steam punk comment, although I think since that movement gained momentum it has gotton a bit fragrant and confectious.
Yes, I would have to agree with you there. There's a lot of overworked rubbish being passed off under that hip moniker these days, but still a few gems out there. I saw some photos of the exhibit in Oxford recently and thought some of the items exhibited, ie. the lighting fixtures, were excellent. I think it's the engineered decorative aspects of your crane that give it that character, the over-engineered and drilled stabilizers, the decorative elements of the large wheels and so on. Sounds like a fascinating project overall, looking forward to seeing more as it develops.
Paul
As promised here is the link to "showcase" thread for the entrants so far in the challenge
http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=6417
Gordon,
your's is for me the most convincing. Very well balanced in the overall appearance and the details are not overdone.
Beautiful by it's simplicity.
Andy's crane has a unique appeal and beautiful finish, but in my opinion is missing the fragility, the scale of parts is somehow not matching.
Jacq