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2 words Amazing workmanship
Barney

Can't find any words good enough to express how good that all is!

Holy cow, that is some really impressive work!

Thank you all for your interest, which of course spurs me on.

Rivets, yes or no

One important question still needs to be clarified: as you can see from the photos and original drawings, the machines are held together by thousands and thousands of rivets.



(Photo: cleveland.com)

This was common practice at that time, autogenous and electric welding was only used industrially after about 1910.
But this is a real challenge for the 1/35th scale modeller. I know of four methods of replication that more or less come into question.

1. use of model rivets
Could be used everywhere where the rivets are only visible from one side. However, they cost about 1.20 Swiss francs per 10 pieces. Just calculate what that means for thousands and thousands of rivets. Not to mention the time needed to drill the holes and insert the rivets.

2. pseudo-rivets made of brass wire
Frithjof has just shown us this, and I have also used it successfully on the Wilford Power Shovel. The process is cheaper than using model rivets, but still more time consuming.

3. etching
Lawrence has shown us this process in perfection for his scale last time. However, it is probably less suitable for 1/35th scale because

• Most of the rivets are ¾", so they have a head height of 0.4 mm in the model. This height would have to be etched away on all surfaces.
• The rivet heads remain as a cylinder instead of a hemisphere. Presumably this effect is clearly visible in 1:35.
• There are many riveted angles and channels on the machine. I don't know if you can etch angles and similar profiles at all.
• If you can't etch them yourself, it will be quite expensive for the expected number of parts.

4. punch rivets
Drill small holes in the back of the sheet. Then the material is pressed forward into a die with a rounded punch.
The main problem I see here is the deformation of the sheet. Since I sometimes have very large or long parts with many rivets, they will stretch uncontrollably in all directions.

Long story short:
I decided not to reproduce the rivets due to time and financial considerations. I think the model will still look good.

However, I would be interested in your opinion. Do you know of any other methods that lead to good results with reasonable effort?

Bernhard

I remember a company that offered rivet decals, raised domes on clear decal film in a variety of sizes. That brings up four questions: Are they still in business? Do they offer rivets appropriate to your needs? Do they look good? What is the manufacturer's name? -- Russ

Berhard,
Archer Fine Transfers use to make rivet decals in a variety of sizes and patterns. The 3D deals were tiny dots of black resin printed onto decal film.They are no longer made. I don't know if you could still find a source for some, but I think the cost would be too much for what you need and the rivets are somewhat fragile and can be scraped of if the model is handled heavily.
I used them for a double row of staggered rivets across the middle of a tender (HO scale) and thought they looked acceptable.


MicroScale makes rivet decals, but I have heard modelers describe them as 'irregular blobs of resin on decal film".

I have added a few rivets to models with a technique I developed which is like rivet decals without decal film:
 
1. Make tiny dimples to locate exactly where each rivet head witll be.
2. Mix a small batch of JB Weld epoxy and picking up a tiny amount of it with the tip of a fine needle.
3. Lower the needle point until the epoxy - but not the needle - touches the dimple.
4. WHEN you make a mistake you can quickly wipe off the epoxy and try again.
The arrow heads point to vertical colums of rivet heads I added to an HO flatcar to match the size and spacing of the rest of the rivets on the car.
You will become crazier than I am if you thiink about using that technique on your project!!!
(Click on the photo below to enlarge the image).

Thanks Russ and Bill. In fact, I bought such decals some time ago for testing. They are certainly usable for N and H0, but definitely too small for 1:32. And of course they are really fragile.

Bernhard

I'd like to encourage you to use the wire-method. I did it at the Oester bridge and found it to be less time consuming than I was afraid of: https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=2257.msg61231#msg61231. This is going to be an absolutely outstanding model and you may regret making that simplification.

Quote from: Bernhard on April 12, 2023, 08:53:12 AMThank you all for your interest, which of course spurs me on.

Rivets, yes or no

One important question still needs to be clarified: as you can see from the photos and original drawings, the machines are held together by thousands and thousands of rivets.
 I know of four methods of replication that more or less come into question.

1. use of model rivets
Could be used everywhere where the rivets are only visible from one side. However, they cost about 1.20 Swiss francs per 10 pieces. Just calculate what that means for thousands and thousands of rivets. Not to mention the time needed to drill the holes and insert the rivets.

2. pseudo-rivets made of brass wire
Frithjof has just shown us this, and I have also used it successfully on the Wilford Power Shovel. The process is cheaper than using model rivets, but still more time consuming.

3. etching
Lawrence has shown us this process in perfection for his scale last time. However, it is probably less suitable for 1/35th scale because

• Most of the rivets are ¾", so they have a head height of 0.4 mm in the model. This height would have to be etched away on all surfaces.
• The rivet heads remain as a cylinder instead of a hemisphere. Presumably this effect is clearly visible in 1:35.
• There are many riveted angles and channels on the machine. I don't know if you can etch angles and similar profiles at all.
• If you can't etch them yourself, it will be quite expensive for the expected number of parts.

4. punch rivets
Drill small holes in the back of the sheet. Then the material is pressed forward into a die with a rounded punch.
The main problem I see here is the deformation of the sheet. Since I sometimes have very large or long parts with many rivets, they will stretch uncontrollably in all directions.

Long story short:
I decided not to reproduce the rivets due to time and financial considerations. I think the model will still look good.

However, I would be interested in your opinion. Do you know of any other methods that lead to good results with reasonable effort?

Well Bernhard, that's a LOT of rivets.

Of course the model would look better with, but 'reasonable effort' is always a consideration as time is not infinite.

For completeness though I can add some other methods:

• Punch them in styrene sheet.  Then slice them off the surface and glue them on your project. More of a technique for restoring lost rivets in smaller scales. Might be easier than Bill's epoxy technique.
• Make them from styrene rod fitted to drilled holes.  A bit of heat domes the heads nicely. Slaters used to make a styrene rod that appeared to be fibre reinforced that was good for this.  I did roofing nails this way on a couple of things.
• 3D print them.  Very viable in 1:32, but you still need to drill all of the holes. I've done rivets and various NBW arrangements.  Of course Grandt line sell such things in moulded styrene, but that gets expensive.

If you decided to etch them, you could just do the doubling /washer plates, which would reduce cost.  Etching 0.8mm material to get 0.4mm rivets would look OK, but there would be some clean up of all of the edges to do and material that thick would be quite expensive.  You could do angles as two flats.  You can also use etching to make the guide dimples for punching. That would take longer, but you should be able to get better form and you could use thinner, cheaper, sheet.

This project has a lot of repeated similar elements.  It might be possible to make up template/moulds in the form of a perforated sheet.  This could be clamped to the work and the rivets formed with epoxy in a similar fashion to Bill's suggestion, but far easier.  This would be very workable, I think, IF you can make the template sufficiently non-stick to peel away once the epoxy is set, and if there is no bleed.  You can get thin silicone rubber and PTFE sheet that could be tried.  They might need backing up with something more rigid (and making clean through holes might be tricky). RTV rubber is another possibility.  A through hole is good as you could apply the epoxy from the outside and clean all rivets to the same height by wiping. A thicker mould might be OK if you had a whisker on the end of each rivet to release excess resin.  If moulding, you could 3d print the patterns, which would give a good head form.  Very easy to come up with ideas - making them work on your project is another ball game. Shame I don't have any RTV on hand - it would be interesting to try.

Thanks Volker for the encouragement, and thanks Lawrence for the interesting suggestions.
After weighing the pros and cons of the various methods, I could at best imagine recreating the rivets from styrene. Like Volker, I could rework the head with a form cutter. The time required for this would be less than for rivets made of brass wire. Drilling the holes is a smaller problem. That's done by the CNC mill while I do something else.
Interesting, I'll have to think a bit before making a final decision.

Bernhard

Quote from: Bernhard on April 12, 2023, 02:01:26 PMThanks Volker for the encouragement, and thanks Lawrence for the interesting suggestions.
After weighing the pros and cons of the various methods, I could at best imagine recreating the rivets from styrene. Like Volker, I could rework the head with a form cutter. The time required for this would be less than for rivets made of brass wire. Drilling the holes is a smaller problem. That's done by the CNC mill while I do something else.
Interesting, I'll have to think a bit before making a final decision.

Bernhard

If drilling the holes is no problem then I would advocate 3d printed rivets as there is no need to form them, they'll be consistent and accurate and they cost very little.  Note that I would use a shank thicker than scale and only slightly smaller than the head to improve the form of the head. Let me know how many thousand you need by PM.

Lawrence, if I really get around to replicating the rivets, I will definitely give the 3D printed rivets a try. Next I'll try counting how many rivets would be needed on the next assembly (front tower).

Bernhard 

Hello Bernhard,

Rivets or no rivets?

I have to agree with Volker. You invest so much brainpower and energy in this great model, it would be a pity to do without the reproduction of these characteristic connectors of the sheet metal parts!
Surely it will be a lot more work until you finish, but in the end the result will inspire you all the more!

Quote4. punch rivets
Drill small holes in the back of the sheet. Then the material is pressed forward into a die with a rounded punch.
The main problem I see here is the deformation of the sheet. Since I sometimes have very large or long parts with many rivets, they will stretch uncontrollably in all directions.

I can understand your fear, but at the same time I want to reassure you. It can be handled well.

An example can be seen at my harbor crane:


Described in a little more detail: click here

...and the pendulum piers to the lift bridge:
click here
and here

I had been able to smooth slightly warped sheets without any problems.
MS58 profiles must be annealed before pressing the rivets, otherwise the rivet heads crack.
For large surfaces I prefer to use nickel silver instead of brass (MS58) - at a thickness of 0.3mm it has much better stability (comparable to brass at 0.5mm thickness).
MS63 (softer brass) is somewhat easier to press than MS58 - but with the disadvantage that this material is much more difficult to mill.

After punching the rivet positions from the back with a V-cutter, I can press them wonderfully on the rip fence on my rivet stamping machine. The depth is determined by a stop on the machine.



So far, I had never found a possible length expansion disturbing even in 1:43.5 scale, here is an example:



I continue to be curious about your progress!

I would do anything you can to add the rivets. The rivets are the defining feature of equipment built in this era. I don't understand the thing about drilling holes in the back of a sheet and punching them. Here is my punching method. You don't need to drill holes, well just one. THis is in about 1mm thick brass. It shows a milling machine but you don't need that, anything that can puch the rivet, from a dedicated machine like fspg2 shows or a simple drill press.

Guys, now I'm really in a dilemma. Actually, I had already decided more or less against the reproduction of the rivets. But the last posts of Frithjof and Paul are again extremely interesting and worth considering. I will reconsider the question. I can imagine that it will come down to a combination of different techniques.
Thanks for the stimulating discussion, I love this forum for that.

Bernhard