weathering powders vs pigments /pastels : what's best

[Dave and Tammy Aarons]

  what works better , powders,pastels or pigments ? will the pigment fixers work on all of them? I want to start air brushing my models and start using technics and products from the military   modelers.they have many more products for weathering then us train guys.

Thanks,Dave

0n30 mining

[JESTER]

Aren't powders the same thing as pigments? Just branding I think.
MIG calls their stuff pigments and Bragdon calls them powders but they seem to be very similar.

I know pastels are said to have a binder in them and they don't stick as well.

I went to my local train store and got some Weathering Powders made by Bragdon.
They are so much better then the ground up pastels I initially used.

[marc_reusser]

Taking a nap....will reply when I wake up.

[Dave and Tammy Aarons]

Hey, Tim. you could be right. Some People swear by certain pastel chalks, I too like Bragodon powders. It was a matter of colors fading over time? but don't all things in life anyway?

Thanks for your input.

dave

[JESTER]

Marc is a wealth of info on the subject. He'll set us straight.

[marc_reusser]

What I can offer is from my own experience and my opinion. Others may not agree and that is fine.

Pastels, and chalk were the old ways of creating weathering powders..by sanding or shaving them to create the powder then applying that onto the models and then fixing it in place with a clear-coat/sealer. This has pretty much gone the way of the 8-track tape, and white patent leather shoes/belts.

The major problem with both of these is the filler material that is mixed in with the pigment...this filler can cause problems during application, and how it wears/appears over time. One of the most noticeable thing with "chalks" is their pale/lackluster appearance when applied....and when people sealed them, much of the color would disappear...this was because of the filler.)

Now what we see on the market, are weathering pigments and/or powders....most frequently when perusing magazines and the web the differentiation/terminology is often a case of semantics...people use whichever term they know/are comfy with.....but as I see it, if you really want to break it down, "pigments" to me tend to be more pure, of higher quality and finer, than "powders" which have more additives in them and are not ground as fine. (in their purest form pigments are basically the raw color product that is added to paints and dyes).

The attached image below shows most of my pigments (and powders).

For example of my above definition, I would call most of them pigments..except for the Dr. Bens, which I would term "powder, because they are not nearly as strong/defined/rich/true when applied (they can feel "chalky" and they seem to have a good bit of "filler" mixed in)....this does not mean that they don't have certain instances where I may want to use them....but it is rare or very specific.

Bragdon's  (I only use 8 colors from them, but use them frequently) are kind of an odd item...they apparently have a "micro-adhesive" mixed in to make them hold/stay, and they also have better color rendition than Dr. Bens.....BUT.....a couple of their colors have what I consider a big  problem with their mix; I don't know what it is that they do to "create" the color, but in the 'Dust Bowl Gray' color for instance, there are frequently small amounts, and even larger blobs, of yellow pigment...and should you happen to get one of these on the model, it can ruin your day. Bragdon's also don't necessarily work as well with the turpentine method of blending moving pigments around....as do for instance the MIG, AK and CMK pigments.

Pigments on the market today are all mixed to represent what the mfr. feels is a certain color..and named thusly...but note that this is often far from what you may consider to be a "light rust", or "brick dust"...and pigments with sim names /intent will vary wildly between mfrs. ; so if you have a color/look in mind, I recommend you look at a physical bottle/sample, if you can, before purchasing.

To summarize, I would recommend you stay away from the chalks and pastels and work with the pigments. Yes, there is a financial and ease of availability benefit to chalks & pastels....and all the old luddite dyed in the wool model RR guys think they are the bees-knees, but I promise that once you start working with pigments you will definitely notice the difference and never go back.  I am still using  pigments I bought 5 years ago..they are still 50% full....so my mileage on them has been great. I also do not use only one pigment for an effect...I generally mix/combine/layer a number of different pigments to get the look I want (IE. rust is not one color)....and I will often mix pigment colors to get a specific color/shade that I want.

The Pigments I use are from:
MIG-Productions
AK-Interactive
CMK
AGAMA
Bragdons
Dr. Bens

Sorry that this was somewhat rambling...but hopefully there was something helpful .

[Wesleybeks]

That was a really helpful explanation Marc.

One question I have is the use of a pigment fixer. Do these work? What would you recommend?

[Dave and Tammy Aarons]

Thanks Marc. no you didn't ramble at all.I knew there were better ways.most RR guys I know and watch on dvds and read about don't want to or wont try anything new.I never paid much attention to military modelers until recently. By the way I was able to buy a copy of Mig J's acrylic painting dvd.should be here in couple of days.Also some AK products/

Thanks again,

Dave

now on to entering a whole new worid.

[Ray Dunakin]

Very helpful info, Marc!

[1-32]

simple-polyscale undercoat lightgreay.this is a water based undercoat that will cover anything,plastics metal resin and wood
regards kin

[CN6401]

Mark, I have to agree with you. You may feel that you rambled but the main thing is, I think you got it all.

A point that I think you may have missed is the mix factor. What I mean by mix factor is there ability to mix with a liquid to make a wash. Some so called powders/pigments are just powdered pastels and won't stay in suspension for a wash. Others mix with just about everything. Without going into a long drawn out explanation it is sometimes necessary to use alcohol, mineral spirits and/or water to make you wash. I have Bragdon and AIM powders and have relied mostly on the AIM powders which are truly pigments.
I think the difference between pigments and powders is that the pigments are ground finer than powders. As for the adhesive, the jury is still out. Powders or Pigments work best over a rough or matte surface. I always start by applying a layer of Testers Dulcoat, applied with an airbrush and not the rattle can. I scrub the pigments into the surface and when I'm satisfied I apply another light coat of Dulcoat to seal it. The problem with some of the powders the tend to disappear when you seal them. Pastels will almost completely disappear when sealed.
I could go on but I won't.
Ralph