shingles & shakes (retitled from "would this")

[shropshire lad]

Russ,

When I spec shake or shingle work I generally have to specify the look I want, straight/aligned or staggered...and if I choose staggered, then i have to specify to the roofer the amount(s)/range....after which he makes up a 10x10 sample area for review and approval.

Marc

  Marc ,

   Is that a 10 foot x 10 foot sample you are talking about ? Sounds like a big area as a sample board . What do you do with it afterwards , as it can't be used ? Or do you take it home and build a shed underneath it ?

Nick

[DaKra]

Strange the Shopy link comes and goes.  Worked yesterday but not today.  Anyway, the photo I thought was interesting is of Eureka Colorado.

http://www.shorpy.com/node/7409

Or you can go to shorpy and search "Eureka 1900".  I save the photos to files according to subject matter headings that interests me, like roofing for this one.  Makes it easier to find them later.

Dave

[finescalerr]

I actually saved that image in hi-res to my HDD as a reference a year ago and have studied it two or three times. From the camera angle I have been unable to determine the shingles' exact alignment (even or slightly staggered). Warped shingles and other aspects of the photo make it difficult to interpret what I see. But I love that photo. -- Russ

[chester]

Russ, being a cabinetmaker, my carpentry skills tend to be a little retentive so my courses are generally straight as a dye. And yes, in less than a year those shingles will all be quite monotone.

[marc_reusser]

Nick,

Most often we have the sample done directly on the roof, that way one can view and experience it as it will look in it's final appearance/installation. The look and appearance has generally been pretty well hashed out by the time the sample goes up, rarely do we have to tear the whole thing back out. [not so the case with slate roof or clay barrel tile installations....there we start with a 4x8 sample mockup on plywood, this then gets adjusted and manipulated by me, the roofer then takes this sample and does a partial roof section for review and approval....if ok he continues roofing...but more often than not this large sample area needs to be adjusted till I am satisfied (as the roofer, or his crew, did not grasp the appearance of the sample....or they thought I would be too stupid to notice that they did not follow it.)


Marc

[DaKra]

I'm not really sure what the debate is about here.  I assume its about whether or not vertical gaps (butts? -- not sure the technical term) line up on adjacent courses of shingles.   

Obviously a roofer will try to avoid this.   But wood  shakes are random widths (I suppose because they are split from logs of random widths). I know from laying virtual shake shingles in computer graphics, that avoiding vertical gaps lining up is not easy at all.  Unless there is some roofers method I don't know (I know next to nothing about actual roofing) I don't think its humanly possible without going back to previously laid shingles and rearranging them.

I could be wrong, but I think the Shorpy photos tend to confirm this.   In the Eureka photo and others, I do see occasional vertical gaps lining up.

Dave   

[shropshire lad]

I'm not really sure what the debate is about here.  I assume its about whether or not vertical gaps (butts? -- not sure the technical term) line up on adjacent courses of shingles.   

Obviously a roofer will try to avoid this.   But wood  shakes are random widths (I suppose because they are split from logs of random widths). I know from laying virtual shake shingles in computer graphics, that avoiding vertical gaps lining up is not easy at all.  Unless there is some roofers method I don't know (I know next to nothing about actual roofing) I don't think its humanly possible without going back to previously laid shingles and rearranging them.

I could be wrong, but I think the Shorpy photos tend to confirm this.   In the Eureka photo and others, I do see occasional vertical gaps lining up.

Dave   

It is perfectly possible and ,in fact ,an overriding requirement that there are no straight joints in either a shingle or shake roof and any roofer that fails to achieve this ought to change professions . There is no excuse for not having a proper bond  for the very simple reason the shingles/shakes are made out of wood and wood can be cut or split to suit whatever size is required . This is made all the more easy by the very fact that the shingles do come in different widths and the roofer just finds a suitable shingle out of his pile . In fact, he ought to have various stacks of different widths so that he doesn't need to waste time sorting through them .

  A good roofer will be looking ahead of where he is working making sure that he doesn't make life awkward for himself further along down the line .

Laying a shingle roof is a piece of cake compared to laying one with old handmade plain clay tiles , where you can easily pick up and put down twenty tiles before finding one that fits . To get one of those roofs to look good takes quite alot of time , skill and patience . Anyone care to see a picture of the roof on my house ? Shout me down if I am taking this "off topic" .


   Nick

[TRAINS1941]

Nick,

I didn't realize you had put the roof on the house???   Hell yes we want to see it!!!

Jerry

[DaKra]

I profess no working knowledge of 1/1 roofing, so I go by what I see in the photos.  For example, a detail from the above referenced photo from Eureka.  I circled some lined up butts in green, there are more in the photo if you look  for them.     No doubt there were more meticulous roofers, but from what I've seen, this isn't unusual.  

[Philip Smith]

no objections Nick. post the photos!
very educational so far.....

Philip

[marc_reusser]

As far as I recall/understand, the general approach/spec for wood shingles and shakes installed over 1x4 or 1x6 spaced boards is:

SHINGLES:

Board spacing is equal to the shingle exposure (which depends in shingle length, roof slope and installation)
Shingles should be lapped/offset 1-1/2" min. with gap in course below.
Joints in alteranate courses should also not align.
Shingles should project beyond the rake to act as a drip edge
Shingles should project over eave 1" to act as drip
First course ("Starter Course") of shingles at eave are doubled up/stacked (with offset gaps)
Shingles should be spaced 1/4"-3/8" to allow for expansion.


SHAKES:

Board spacing is equal to the shake exposure (which depends in shingle length, roof slope and installation)
As has been pointed out, good practice is to lay and lap asphalt roofing felt between courses.
Shakes should be lapped/offset 1-1/2" min. with gap in course below.
Because of the felt, it is not such an issue re. joints in alteranate courses aligning...if there is no felt then ther should be no alignment between alternate courses.
Shakes should project beyond the rake to act as a drip edge
Shakes should project over eave 1" to act as drip
First course ("Starter Course") of shingles at eave are doubled up/stacked (with offset gaps)
Shakes should be spaced 3/8"-1/2" to allow for expansion.


Shingles are generally 16, 18, or 24" in length. Shakes are generally 18" or 24" in length.


Marc

[mabloodhound]

That's a very good treatise on shingle laying Marc.   It's the one I try to follow but sometimes I'll cheat the 1 1/2" overlap down to 1" but NEVER in line for two consecutive courses.   If the shingles are wet they can be touching as they will gap themselves when dried out.
Now to copy your post so it can be re-posted the next time someone asks.

[chester]

That's a very good treatise on shingle laying Marc.   It's the one I try to follow but sometimes I'll cheat the 1 1/2" overlap down to 1" but NEVER in line for two consecutive courses.   If the shingles are wet they can be touching as they will gap themselves when dried out.
Now to copy your post so it can be re-posted the next time someone asks.

What he said. I should copy Marc's post and give it to new guys on the job.
   One thing I'd like to note about construction techniques of all kinds. That is that for every craftsman on the job, there is that many different ways of building things and some that just don't know or care. And consequently there a lot of folks doing it wrong in real life, so to imitate even the incorrect method in our models can't be considered wrong because it does exist in our real structures.
   Dave, it's really not that hard, just takes a little practice and forethought to lay a roof without vertical seams lining up. I'm just glad I can stand on the ground and supervise these days.

[shropshire lad]

That's a very good treatise on shingle laying Marc.   It's the one I try to follow but sometimes I'll cheat the 1 1/2" overlap down to 1" but NEVER in line for two consecutive courses.   If the shingles are wet they can be touching as they will gap themselves when dried out.
Now to copy your post so it can be re-posted the next time someone asks.

What he said. I should copy Marc's post and give it to new guys on the job.
   One thing I'd like to note about construction techniques of all kinds. That is that for every craftsman on the job, there is that many different ways of building things and some that just don't know or care. And consequently there a lot of folks doing it wrong in real life, so to imitate even the incorrect method in our models can't be considered wrong because it does exist in our real structures.
 

  You are absolutely right , if someone wants to model a roof with straight joints because there are plenty of examples in real life ,then that is their right . If they do this knowing they are reproducing real life poor quality work that is fine , but the overwhelming majority of model roofs that are built with straight joint are done in ignorance because the modeller doesn't know any better. So unless it is clearly stated somewhere by the modeller that he is deliberately reproducing real life poor quality work he is likely to be lumped with all the other modellers who build these sorts of roofs in ignorance .

  At the end of the day , whether built intentionally or in ignorance, a roof with straight joints will look crap ,


Nick

[shropshire lad]

Here are a few pictures of the present state of the roof on my house .

  The secondhand hand made clay plain tiles ( bit of a mouthful) are all individually bedded on with a dollop of lime mortar ( no cement used) after having been carefully selected from a big pile .

  You will notice that none of the tiles are flat so it is a bit of a challenge to get them to lay nicely so that they (a) don't rock and (b) make the roof flow and undulate properly .

  However , when done properly they do make the best looking roofs .

   Nick