Feldbahnmodule with ship

[Bill Gill]

Excellent!

[Bernhard]

Looks even better every time. Perfect work.

Bernhard

[Stuart]

Not a flaw anywhere!  Beautiful work.

[fspg2]

Thank you, gentlemen, for your approval!

 The question arose in the Buntbahn forum as to whether the drive with chain was guaranteed... Answer no!

I was able to discover a few photos on the WWW under Hamburg harbor cranes that show a "rope sheave" or reel wheel. Some of the ropes run from the "pulley" (?) to the front of the crane house. 
The functional principle cannot be recognized on the linked picture either: click

Unfortunately, I only have a few low-resolution pictures of the Münzel crane. These are from different expansion stages.

I found a few pictures from the mid-1950s in the family album, in which not many details are recognizable.
The following photo was taken by my grandfather on a boat trip at the time.

Münzel Ausleger 01 (fspg2)


Münzel Ausleger 02 (fspg2)


So far, I can only assume a kind of "pulley", which, however, shows no connection to the crane house below. The resolution is simply not good enough.

Münzel Ausleger 03 (fspg2)



Later, the sand to be loaded was not only stored on the ground, but a double hopper was built under which trucks could load the sand directly. This was much quicker than waiting for individual crane shovels.


In the following later photos, you can see a structure that has yet to make sense to me.
If there is an electric motor inside the box elevated below the auger shaft, I unfortunately see no direct connection to the boom gearbox.
 
Münzel Ausleger 04 (fspg2)

Münzel-Kran_Lauenburg (Copyright W.Hinsch-LEA)


The crane looked like this at the end of 1959/60:

Muenzelkran_Lbg_2k (fspg2)

Münzel-Kran_Lauenburg (Copyright W.Hinsch-LEA)

What is that black bar (or cover plate seen from the side) above the gearbox?

Getriebe_Ausleger_07 (fspg2)



Getriebe_Ausleger_08 (fspg2)


Now I'm curious to see if any of you can provide more detailed information about how the drive might have worked here and what kind of "box" (housing for electric motor?) might be on the left in the picture above.


I recently put together the boom with the crane housing and base.

Münzel Montage komplett 3 (fspg2)


Münzelkran Gehäuse mit Sockel 01 (fspg2)



Since I don't know anything about the roof frame of this crane, I took the liberty of adding a few diagonal braces to the existing riveted connections of the roof frame - this time as a possible later welded version. I took my inspiration from the old blue Hamburg crane.

Bolzen 02 (fspg2)



U-Profil Dach-Gruppe 08 (fspg2)


U-Profil Dach-Gruppe 09 (fspg2)


U-Profil Dach-Gruppe 10 (fspg2)



U-Profil Dach-Gruppe 11 (fspg2)


The four L-profiles, which will support the gearbox housing drawn in red, have not yet had a direct connection drawn in the animation.

Another update:

Above, in my first two pictures (Münzel boom 01 + 02), I can see a pulley - but unfortunately no downward connection..... how can the boom have been raised and lowered back then?

When I recently received a great tip from Volker about a picture from the Oldenburg City Museum, I asked there whether I could use a colored section of a crane picture from 1920 there for my article here. I got the green light (thanks for that) 

Bildausschnitt Kran 1920 (fspg2)

Quay around 1920 ©Stadtmuseum Oldenburg
(Image detail after consultation with the Oldenburg City Museum)


In a book about the DEMAG company from 1920, I then found a solution that could also have been possible for the Lauenburg Münzel crane in the beginning.

Demag Vollportalkran ca.1929_01 (fspg2)


Many cranes from this period were equipped with "manually retractable jibs".

Demag Vollportalkran ca.1929_02 (fspg2)



Demag Vollportalkran ca.1929_03 (fspg2)


On the two enlarged sections you can see how a cable (the pressure grid makes it look more like a spiral cable) leads downwards from a very small upper pulley on the outside of the crane. There also appears to be a pulley or sheave at the lower end. The bright spot in the middle could have been an axle to an inward crank.

On the Oldenburg crane, the cables probably led down through the roof.


As suggested by Michael in the Buntbahn forum, I will make a design in CAD in which a driven shaft goes vertically upwards out of the crane housing and forms the connection to the worm shaft with two bevel gears (module 0.4).
The only thing I still can't find is an explanation as to why the hood on the left (in the picture Getriebe_Ausleger_08) was clearly below the spindle axis.

I still hope to get more information from the Lauenburg museum...  maybe some pictures or even drawings will turn up that explain further.

When I started to build a model of the lift bridge in 2011 (https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=1424.0), I only had a few floor plans, a dimensioned revision drawing and three small pictures. With these, I was at least able to recreate the lock entrance.
Then, in 2018, a nice contact on the Buntbahn forum told me who could help me with the original plans of the bridge. Some things just take a little longer ;-)


Münzel Montage komplett 3 (fspg2)

[finescalerr]

I hope you find the answers to your questions. If so, maybe your model will help to educate others. -- Russ

[Barney]

Im Speechless and now on my second flower arranging class !
Barney

[Lawrence@NZFinescale]

Thanks for whiling away an hour learning about cranes...

Now I'm curious to see if any of you can provide more detailed information about how the drive might have worked here

The classic modeller's conundrum.  At this point no real way to know how it was actually done.  Possible to infer or interpolate from available data and/or by analogy from other similar cranes (as you are doing).  Typically, once a decision has been made and metal cut, new information will arrive too late.

This worries me less than it used to. As I get older the balance between 100% accuracy and a completed (slightly imperfect) model is shifting towards the latter!

Whatever method is used to raise the jib (luffing?), the earlier arrangement particularly appears low load (and thus perhaps not used to lift the load, but to pre-set the jib position).  On that basis, my first question is does it need to work?  If the crane is doing repetitive tasks there may be no need to adjust the jib (in reality as well as in the model).

Are you sure the crane could luff?  Many cranes like this seem to have a fixed jib.  Your pics all seem to have the jib at the same angle.

If the original set up was a manual chain arrangement then it may not be possible to model this in working form and some artifice may be needed.



For what it's worth I found broadly similar cranes, but I don't think they help much: https://www.flickr.com/photos/90072739@N02/8431929337,

Could Google 'Berlin dock crane' as there are 2-3 there that maybe similar, though with fixed jibs as far as I can see.

[Bernhard]

In the case of a loading crane, the loading and unloading points will rarely be on the same arc. In order to be able to approach different points, the crane must therefore have an adjustable jib or be movable.
As the Münzel crane was stationary, it is probable that the jib could be adjusted, as otherwise the freighters would have had to be moved several times to unload. A motorized drive seems likely to me, because manual adjustment would probably have taken too long.
But these are just guesses, because it is not really possible to tell anything precise from the available photos.

Bernhard

[Lawrence@NZFinescale]

In the case of a loading crane, the loading and unloading points will rarely be on the same arc. In order to be able to approach different points, the crane must therefore have an adjustable jib or be movable.
As the Münzel crane was stationary, it is probable that the jib could be adjusted, as otherwise the freighters would have had to be moved several times to unload. A motorized drive seems likely to me, because manual adjustment would probably have taken too long.
But these are just guesses, because it is not really possible to tell anything precise from the available photos.

Bernhard

I totally agree.  I know a little bit about cranes as I did a course many years ago and had an operators certificate (only for a gantry crane, but you learn the general stuff anyway).

Looking at old cranes online (especially dock cranes) it is clear than many of these had fixed jibs. Presumably the limitations were overcome by moving the boat and the receiving vehicle.  I imagine the trade off was less convenience, but a significantly cheaper crane. A manually adjustable jib would be a little better at a little more cost.

The earlier photos of the Munzel crane seem to have very light gear for jib adjustment (if that is what it does). Worm drives are not particularly efficient, so if one were involved that would lower the liftable load even further. Probably "manually retractable jib" is what we see - converted to electric in later years?

The current proposal seems like it would be workable and still quite realistic.

[fspg2]

@Russ
It always remains exciting - even if I wish I could get there faster... but as the saying goes: "the journey is the goal!" 

@Barney
Spending the whole day surrounded by wonderfully fragrant flowers isn't possible for all of us either ;-)

@Lawrence

This worries me less than it used to. As I get older the balance between 100% accuracy and a completed (slightly imperfect) model is shifting towards the latter!

I can now empathize with that! Since I've retired, time is running out faster and faster... and I still have 15 more projects waiting to be continued - not to mention the things that have only been floating around in my head so far, which would also be great as models...

Could Google 'Berlin dock crane' as there are 2-3 there that maybe similar, though with fixed jibs as far as I can see.

The three harbor cranes in Berlin-Tempelhofer Hafen all have fixed jibs. Unfortunately, none of the cranes I have been able to photograph in recent years have been able to provide any information.


@Bernhard

In the case of a loading crane, the loading and unloading points will rarely be on the same arc. In order to be able to approach different points, the crane must therefore have an adjustable jib or be movable.
As the Münzel crane was stationary, it is probable that the jib could be adjusted, as otherwise the freighters would have had to be moved several times to unload. A motorized drive seems likely to me, because manual adjustment would probably have taken too long.
But these are just guesses, because it is not really possible to tell anything precise from the available photos.

We can probably agree that the boom of the Münzel crane was electrically adjusted in the later version.

Münzel-Kran (LEA) 02 (fspg2)

Münzel crane_Lauenburg (Copyright W.Hinsch-LEA)
Photo taken at the end of the 1950s

The boom had to be constantly adjusted when loading sand from several adjacent ships to the storage areas or hoppers on the quay. I can still clearly remember the noises when we children played on the piles of sand, much to the annoyance of the "master" (crane operator). Unfortunately, I didn't take any photos back then

Even if I am attracted by the cable control, the functional safety in the model will be safer with a drive rod from the driver's cab upwards through the roof (with electric motor in the crane cab).


Getriebegehäuse Kippachse Montage 02 (fspg2)



A 2.0 mm drive shaft is guided upwards through the roof in a 2.5/2.0 mm protective tube and ends in a housing similar to a letterbox. Two 90° bevel gears (module 0.4) lead laterally out of the housing - also through a 2.5 mm protective tube - directly onto the axis of the worm. The ball bearings have only been considered so far and will be embedded accordingly.
The next thing to do is to draw the stator,... must be drawn.

Today I continued with the front eyelet of the threaded rod.

Gewindestange mit Öse + Schutzrohr 01 (fspg2)



The two yellow 3.5/3.0 mm protective tubes are firmly connected to the movable gearbox. The threaded rod is soldered to the front connecting eyelet and another 4.0/3.5 mm protective tube is soldered to above it. This allows the protective tube coming from the gearbox to slide back and forth inside.


Gewindestange mit Öse + Schutzrohr 02 (fspg2)


Gewindestange mit Öse + Schutzrohr 03 (fspg2)



The connecting eyelet was milled from 2.0 mm MS58 as a double half-shell.
I milled the plate from both sides. The four outer 2.0mm holes were used for precise positioning of the second side. The panel was fixed with small screws through the two middle 3.0 mm holes during milling. Double-sided adhesive foil and a retaining bar at the rear end provided further security.

Gewindestange mit Öse + Schutzrohr 04 (fspg2)



Pre-tinned on one side, the two halves were fixed and connected to the flame. I was then able to remove the 4.0 mm round silver steel rod with a rubber mallet.

Gewindestange mit Öse + Schutzrohr 05 (fspg2)



Then I used a four-jaw chuck on the Emco Unimat 3 to round the remaining square to 3.5mm...

Gewindestange mit Öse + Schutzrohr 06 (fspg2)



... and cut it off.

Gewindestange mit Öse + Schutzrohr 07 (fspg2)


The threaded rod was turned down to 2.0 mm at the front end - so it fits into the 2.0 mm socket of the eyelet.

Gewindestange mit Öse + Schutzrohr 08 (fspg2)

[fspg2]

Over the years, a lot of things accumulate - and sometimes things suddenly turn up that could fit exactly:
For example, I found a cable spindle in a box of gears from old clocks.

Seilspindel 01 (fspg2)


Diameter = 18.2mm - Width = 12.65mm - 14 windings

Seilspindel 02 (fspg2)


Seilspindel 03 (fspg2)


Seilspindel 04 (fspg2)


The part could serve wonderfully for winding up the hoist rope. Tests with a 0.6mm steel cable already looked promising. The rope diameter of the prototype could have been between 12.0mm and 16.0mm. There are only presumed statements about similar cranes on the WWW.

Unfortunately, I have no information about the inside of the prototype crane. So I will orientate myself a little on the blue Hamburg harbor crane mentioned above.

 
Hamburger_Hafenkran_050 (fspg2)


Hamburger_Hafenkran_051 (fspg2)


Hamburger_Hafenkran_054 (fspg2)


Volker had another link to an unfortunately burnt-out old harbor crane that is waiting to be restored and offers a view inside. This crane has two spindles inside the crane housing - you can also see the gears for a roller chain drive. But what interests me here is the rope winding.

The Münzel crane had two ropes - closing/lifting and opening the grab... so I could use a second rope spindle....
These will be clearly visible through the large front window... maybe I can still find something or it has to be completely redrawn and 3D printed.


Two lamps will be mounted on the boom of the crane. One at the tip to illuminate the grab area, the second in front of the crane housing.


Lampenschirm 15,5mm mit Birne 03 (fspg2)



Originally, I wanted to use lampshades that I still have from my 0-gauge days and 12-volt light bulbs. They should be replaceable, as I have already shown with my old storage shed: click

Alter_Lagerschuppen_114 (fspg2)



The light intensity is perfectly adequate for inside a building - but simply too weak outdoors.

Volker had another idea!

Just as he did with his lamp, I'm going to give it a try and combine a few purchased parts with a lampshade and printed "light bulb".

I got the dimensions of the LED from the supplier's website, so the lampshade was drawn accordingly.


Lampenschirm 15,5mm mit Birne 01 (fspg2)


Lampenschirm 15,5mm mit Birne 02 (fspg2)


The drawn thread of the bulb is slightly oversized - it will be adjusted later!


Until I can hold all the parts in my hands, I will continue to draw the roof structure and make more parts.

U-Profile Dach-Gruppe Montage 01 (fspg2)

[finescalerr]

Somebody could earn a Ph.D. by studying Frithjof's posts! -- Russ

[Bernhard]

I am always amazed by every new detail.

Bernhard

[fspg2]

It's often the little things that take a little more time.
I just wanted to mill two small flanges for the protective tubes and the day is almost over.

First the drawing was created and the milling file derived from it, so after a good hour I had two (plus one - in case a part should disappear) flanges milled out of two millimeter MS58.

Flansch 01 (fspg2)



To remove the small retaining bars on the 6.5mm outer edge, I soldered the flanges onto the 3.5/3.0mm protective tubes...

Flansch 02 (fspg2)



...and machined on the lathe with a small file. I also machined the lower protrusion to 1.0 mm to create a secure guide in the walls of the gear block.

Flansch 03 (fspg2)



As the corresponding walls were not previously intended for mounting the flanges, I had to drill out the existing 3.0 mm hole to 3.5 mm. At the same time, six 0.5 mm holes were drilled for the rivet connection.
The parts were fixed in a small recess with masking tape and machined on the milling machine.

Flansch 04 (fspg2)



I inserted the rivets into the holes using a jig with a headband magnifier and small tweezers. The 40 watt soldering iron and a little soldering paste connected everything.

Flansch 05 (fspg2)



The 3.0 mm silver steel rod ensured vertical alignment during soldering.

Flansch 06 (fspg2)



The soldered rivets protruded by 0.7 mm on the inside and prevented the inner ball bearings from being inserted accurately. So the protrusion was removed. I simply forgot to take a photo.
All parts were then sandblasted and burnished.

Flansch 07 (fspg2)



Initially I wanted to solder together the boom "lifting block" (I don't know another word for this part) from two parallel half-shells.

Ausleger-Hebeblock 01 (fspg2)


Ausleger-Hebeblock 02 (fspg2)


Ausleger-Hebeblock 03 (fspg2)



Two small 2.0 mm wire pins on the inside should align the two parts.

Ausleger-Hebeblock 04 (fspg2)



A metal clamp held everything together when I then hard brazed this brass block with the flame. The clamp slipped to the side and pressed the 0.6 mm thick side walls together.

Fortunately, I couldn't fix it - so I came up with a modified solution.

Ausleger-Hebeblock  05 (fspg2)



In version two, the two side parts were aligned at an angle to each other and connected with two trapezoidal sheets.
This also allowed me to slightly reduce the offset of the 2.5 mm L-profiles.

Ausleger-Hebeblock  07 (fspg2)



The two auxiliary plates are located in 1.0 mm thick pockets in the side shells.

Ausleger-Hebeblock  08 (fspg2)



During assembly, a Pertinax gauge will help with alignment.

Ausleger-Hebeblock  10 (fspg2)



Ausleger-Hebeblock  09 (fspg2)



The two locating holes for the axle bushes were reamed with a 5.0 mm reamer.

Ausleger-Hebeblock  11 (fspg2)



I then soldered in 1.0 mm brass rivets from the inside. The 1.3 mm head ensures a secure stop.

Ausleger-Hebeblock  12 (fspg2)


Ausleger-Hebeblock  13 (fspg2)


Ausleger-Hebeblock  14 (fspg2)


Now the two small 5.0/4.0mm sockets have to be soldered in before I can mount the bracket.

[Bill Gill]

Words fail in the face of your craftsmanship!