PaperBrick

[DaKra]

Anyway, I'm not saying there is no potential in printed paper brick.  I believe there is.  I just don't think making each printed brick a unique photo of an individual brick is heading in the right direction.   Because that doesn't solve the larger issue of depth and texture and until that's addressed, its all moot.     

And I don't think depth/texture problem is insurmountable, I just don't think it accomplishes anything to brush the issue off as some form of artistic impressionism, just because the problem doesn't pose an immediate solution.    To me, its more interesting to look at it as a technical problem to solve. 

The first thing I would look at is how to completely kill the sheen of printed paper so that it looks more like masonry, and less like wallpaper.  The problem, as far as I've gone with it is, that using matte paper produces less crisp printing than shiny or finely textured paper.  Which means the paper needs to be made completely matte, which means adding a matte coat or phsysical texture.  None of the my usual matte varnishes gave me the results I wanted.   I have some brick paper sold by MicroMark in which they tried to solve some of the texture/depth problem by adding a pebble finish.  Which looks fairly ridiculous in person, so that's out. 

Any ideas?

Dave


 









   

[Mr Potato Head]

I have a alps four color printer and my friend is in R&D at HP, so send me a file and I will try and print them up for you and see what we get?
I can also use a finish cartridge after printing for different effects, now my alps is low tech in DPI that's why my friend at HP  has access to some pretty amazing printers, if you could see some of the things he's done for me! Pretty incredible, heck if the economy gets any worse we might need to think about printing green backs!
Just kidding FBI   
MPH

[finescalerr]

Once again I will suggest using Lanaquarelle cold press paper if you want to print (and emboss) bricks. It takes inkjet printing well and has a textured (almost dead flat) matte finish very appropriate for brick, stone, and wood. (I have covered this subject extensively in various articles in my books, including the current Modelers' Annual.) Also several times on this forum.

In the case of brick and stone, at least, it's okay if the printed image is not quite crisp. Trust me; I've studied the results under high magnification. The main problem will be that all brick and stone surfaces will be on the same plane. Some of you dismiss that. That's either because you don't understand or because you are less critical. The latter is okay; the former can be illustrated.

Try using the attached image as your artwork if you want to mess with printed bricks. For goodness' sake, DON'T print on glossy paper or, for that matter, on any dedicated photo paper. And Dullcote over glossy paper is a waste of time. (Why must I explain these things so often?)

MicroMark's pebbled brick paper is horrible. Don't even consider it. Not only is the color and printing bad but the pebbling is just as Dave describes: ridiculous.

The majority seems to disagree with me on this topic so I guess I'll butt out and let you learn the hard way. And, before somebody says Marc will make those PDF bricks look good so everything Dave and I have pointed out is silly, I will say that Marc would have far better results with different artwork and I guarantee anything he might produce as the Devil's advocate won't be the result of a quick and dirty wash and a few dabs of pastel chalk.

Russ

[DaKra]

Cool.  Is there any color printer which applies films instead of ink?   Or a color printer which uses a thick pigment?   Because maybe a printer that applies pigment or film which has some thickness, would print bricks which have actual depth.  

Dave    

[DaKra]

Russ, right on the paper, thanks for the reminder.   

There are a couple of applications where I think printed brick might work OK.  For example the front walls of residential tenements are often facades of fine quality brick, laid with great care and precision.  From the sidewalk, they sort of look fake, because they are so perfect, smooth and on the same plane.  Might be reasonable to use paper there.  Don't know, need to try it and see.

And should Marc produce a prototype, refer back to Christian's comment early in the thread.  Printed brick looking good in a photo doesn't count, printed brick looks awesome in photos.  Its in person, under stereoscopic scrutiny of the Mk 1 eyeball where it counts.   

Keep on posting to the thread, so's I don't feel ganged up on.   

Dave

[marc_reusser]

Dave,
My neighbor is a graphic and packaging designer, and she has a really awesome printer (think it was an Epson...but not the cheap buy it at the Office Despot kind), that prints in completely opaque and matte inks....they are almost like an ultra thin layer of paint. She did some color comps for us on full bleed sheets, and I thought the stuff was airbrushed Guache, when I first saw it.  I will ask her what the printer and inks are next time I see her.

Russ,
Of course it wasn't going to be a lickety-split operation to turn those into the "nearly indistinguishable from and individual brick wall"....but, it could be done...and would probably only take 1/3 of the time....which is IMO is a great for interior usage, or specific areas that are properly disguised and blended into the model.

_____


One thing I would like to point out, is that I think we are focusing here on one type of percieved brick and brick wall appearance.  There are many old brick walls that are perfectly even in brick face and alignment, and where all the bricks have a slight satin surface......I have frequently seen these walls in buidings ranging from simple homes, to urban and huge industrial structures...yes even in completely derelict and abandoned structures that would give any decay-aholic an orgasm...with examples ranging from current day, to over 100 years old.....so this whole argument about dead matte, and what paper, (though good, informative and valuable) in some part only applies to a limited range/type of brick walls....and that limited idea of what a brick wall should look like is almost exactly that which guys like George Selios, Tom Yorke, and others of the charicature school espouse.....so IMO somewhat short sighted.


Marc

[marc_reusser]

So I accosted my neighbor and asked what she had used.for our comps....apparently I was mistaken about the printer....it was done on a simple inexpensive HP- 5600 thermal inkjet, she said the trick was using a Canon matte photo paper. This allowed for the dead flat finish, the proper color rendition and the appearance of it being a layered opaque ink.  She noted that one had to set the printer (output quality, saturation etc,) and image (dpi) settings to the proper/needed settings.

She was willing to do a scale test sheet for me, but I didn't want to bother her...and I dont have the time to find/download the image, set it up, email it and then muck around with it anyhow. 

M

[finescalerr]

Remember, guys: Dedicated inkjet photo papers -- ALL OF THEM -- are very delicate. They have a surface layer of powder to allow minimal ink bleed. It's very easy to scratch or chip them when modeling and the result is white flecks you can't repair or touch up properly. -- Russ

[marc_reusser]

Remember, guys: Dedicated inkjet photo papers -- ALL OF THEM -- are very delicate. They have a surface layer of powder to allow minimal ink bleed. It's very easy to scratch or chip them when modeling and the result is white flecks you can't repair or touch up properly. -- Russ

"Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves."

[shropshire lad]

So in conclusion . Brick by brick is the way to go .

[mad gerald]

So in conclusion . Brick by brick is the way to go .

... FULL ACK, especially because I'm one of the individual brick laying fraction too ...   ... apart from the fact, that I additional to that would like to improve on the chip board brick walls, but it was impossible to find a workshop/copy shop who would do that kind of laser cutting chip board 'round here: "Sorry sir, but we don't accept orders like THAT!" ... Germany sometimes seems to be a wasteland regarding service and customer orientation ...  

... One thing I would like to point out, is that I think we are focusing here on one type of percieved brick and brick wall appearance.  There are many old brick walls that are perfectly even in brick face and alignment, and where all the bricks have a slight satin surface......I have frequently seen these walls in buidings ranging from simple homes, to urban and huge industrial structures...yes even in completely derelict and abandoned structures that would give any decay-aholic an orgasm...with examples ranging from current day, to over 100 years old.....so this whole argument about dead matte, and what paper, (though good, informative and valuable) in some part only applies to a limited range/type of brick walls....and that limited idea of what a brick wall should look like is almost exactly that which guys like George Selios, Tom Yorke, and others of the charicature school espouse.....so IMO somewhat short sighted.

... for example this one, at least about 300 years old, reconditioned about 100 years ago ...

... OK - a little bit dusty at the moment, but I do not have a photo of the other side(s) yet ... (mumbling: "got to find another one ...") ...

Cheers

EDIT ... so here's another one .. not that old, but with the above mentioned appearance (slight satin surface):

[DaKra]

Russ's focus on coarse brick I think is correct because, although its a bit of a cliche, it is indeed common in the 1/1 world and, in my experience, the hardest to realistically reproduce in miniature.   Its basically the gold standard for brick.   If this can be done, then any other type can be done.   Personally I've set my expectations a lot lower for what can be done with printed paper.  

Here is an example of the above-referenced front facade brick, very common around here.   It is very regular with high contrast between the brick and mortar, but without a lot of depth between them.  It is completely matte.  On this particular wall on Smith Street in Brooklyn, the mortar has been brought right up to the brick surface.   In 1/1 scale, viewed from across the street, depth is almost imperceptible.  Without the sun at a steep angle casting shadows,  it looks like a perfectly flat wall.    So in 1/87 or smaller, its a possible application for printed paper, which is high contrast, zero depth.  

Which leads me to wonder how much depth needs to be added to 1/87 paper brick for it to stop looking like a slipshod phony veneer and start looking like a wall composed of individual units.  Maybe in applications like this, not every mortar line needs to be indented, maybe just some random embossed bricks, or mortar lines, is enough to break up the surface.    Or maybe it only needs to be completely matte without a hint of sheen.  Maybe some texture can be added by pressing the paper with sandpaper, maybe before printing, so it doesn't chip the ink.  I don't know, I'd need to test it.    

[finescalerr]

I have removed the last several posts, including my own. Some were funny but things went too far off topic and nothing was really worth saving. Instead I would rather see this discussion focus on the most effective ways to represent brick, whether with paper or other materials or a combination. The debate about perception and modeling standards, while sometimes frustrating, also could reveal some lessons. All of us are better modelers and philosophers than comedians or politicians. -- Russ

[mabloodhound]

OK, I read Russ' last message and although this is not paper, I thought some might be interested in this material/process.   At the last Crafstman Structure show, Jimmy Simmons of http://www.monstermodelworks.com/ had a new (to me) brick pattern, laser cut into basswood.
He uses raster cutting with the laser to cut these from a photograph, not layout lines, so the result is more life like. 

He offered a sample at the show so I painted and finished it to see what it looks like.
I used WalMart gray primer and then acrylic colors over that.   Then using my cornstarch mortar technique and an overcoat of matte spray to get the finished product.   I really like the results and he also offers this product in a newer brick pattern.

[mabloodhound]

As a comparison, here's some laserboard material from Rusty Stumps Scale Models http://www.rustystumps.com/proddetail.asp?prod=L1502, cut using a layout and vector cutting.   The aged brick pattern is good but not with the depth and authenticity of the photograph cut product.

I used the same finishing process on these.