Jacq's Logging Project Discussion

[TRAINS1941]

Russ

I just love your attitude.  You are right it is your little forum and you can add your 2 cents anytime you want.  I totally agree with you on throwing some of those words out.  And of course we all understand you.  Jacq your plans are really coming along nicely can't wait to see the first pictures of layout your going to build.

Jerry

[jacq01]

 

What about those of us who've been known to make masters for casting model railroad parts?

  MMR very rarely produce masters for reproducing parts.  Very often the people who are able to make masters
  do not like the limelights.

 

[RoughboyModelworks]

Yes, the truly accomplished craftsmen never use the term "master" to describe themselves. Those who are suspect are the individuals who loudly proclaim to be a "master" whatever and we should stay as far away from them as possible. They are only trying to sell us something.

Bill

[John McGuyer]

Except, of course, for those fishermen who are very accomplished at baiting hooks.

John

[RoughboyModelworks]

Where I come from, we call them wankers?

Bill

[jacq01]

   Back to the logging and sawmill questions:

   On photo's of the log carriage of the ( open)Pino Grande mill and on the plans of the Hume Bennett mill I notice only 2 head blocks. The length of the carriage appears to be approx similar aroun 22'- 23'.
I read that logs are pre-cut to length ( 16') as the Mich-Cal skeletons are releatively short ( 20'/22') until the 40's when longer cars where used and the logs were cut to length in the pond with a floating steam saw.
Hume Bennett appears to have done the same, the mill layout does not cater for long logs as the logdeck is only 26'6" wide over the roll-timbers.

Is this normal practice ? 

Jacq

[marc_reusser]

Jacq,

I really haven't an answer to that. I can only assume that the mill equipment sizing was based on the size logs that the woods  equipment and the rail cars could handle and bring out of the woods (and visa-versa).  I think it likely was also impacted by what "time period" they were logging (ie. equipment changed advanced over the years), and how well the operation was capitalized, what kind of timber was being harvested, what was the timber being used for, and so forth.

I know Hume-Bennets redwood operation was a disaster...they lost more wood in the forest than they ever got to the mill. How much of the felled tree was actually salvageable...and how long of a large dia log (or piece of one) could be handled likely played a role in the mill head/carriage size.  Note also the "dolly" used to haul the logs into the mill....the use of such a dolly also would restrict to a how long of a log could be handled.

Note here the size of logs HB was hauling out of the woods.




...you can also see the lengths here in this photo of the pond. Note how very short some of the larger dia logs are.





Marc

[RoughboyModelworks]

Very interesting photos Marc? check out the diameter of the logs used for the cribbing in the upper photo. That in itself would be a fascinating scene to model.

Bill

[jacq01]

 
Incredible what was done to get the logs to the mill. A flume of 58 miles ?? 

 

...you can also see the lengths here in this photo of the pond. Note how very short some of the larger dia logs are.

  The max deck length inside the Hume mill  was 26'6" , with 6'0" to spare to the wall
a maximum log length of around 30'0" was possible.
  The carriage deck had a length of 23'0" and scrutinizing the drawing it appears 2 screw type headblocks were used  spaced 12'0" apart.  This means a minimum log length of 14'0" to 16'0" with a max diameter of 9'8" ( doorwidth)
This comes close to the standard of 16'0" used by the Mich-Cal for the logs bucked in the woods. The skeletons were built based on this size until after WW II when 32'0" became the bucking size for transport with the new longer cars. The logs were cut to 16'0" prior to entry in the mill.

  Was / is 16'0" a standard length for lumber or is it a coincidence that both mills ( Hume and Pino Grande I ) have a "similar" length AND use a "dolly" AND have a 9'0" bandsaw ? 

I have put together the headblocks and knees of the western scale and I am in the process of adding additional details. The no.4 Trout power setworks is an intriging piece of equipment. I have the patent and I am studying the details to be able to understand it's workings and make all additional parts missing in the kit. Possibly I modify the setwork to present a type no 2 or 3 as shown in the Pino Grande photo's.

Jacq

[TRAINS1941]

Jacq

Can't wait to see how you change the carriage pieces from the Westernscale Models Kit.  Sound like you've done a lot of homework on this Jacq.

Marc There some great photo's, Bill your right there some really huge logs under that fume!!

Jerry

[marc_reusser]

Jacq,

You have me at a bit of a duisadvantage...sawmills and sawmill prctice are not really my strong point...I would have to look into the reasons why.  16' was a stadard lenth for lumber. As a rule lumber tends to run in 2' increments.  Without looking/digging into the info I have, I would guess that it was just coincidence.  I really can't speak to the Mich-Cal set-up, as I have never really studied it (I tend to shy away from it and Westside, because I personally find them both over-modeled/over-discussed)....but something to consider on the HB mill is that I would doubt they generally cut finished 16' boards, as they had to flume all their rough sawn boards down to the planing mill in Sanger....such a long board would be quite unwieldy in a flume...especially so in one like theirs where there were numerous curves/bends.

Marc

[John McGuyer]

I'm amazed at the size of some of those logs.

John

[jacq01]

Marc,

I really can't speak to the Mich-Cal set-up, as I have never really studied it (I tend to shy away from it and Westside, because I personally find them both over-modeled/over-discussed

I fully agree.  There is one thing to consider. A ( ignorant) beginner finishes very quickly at one of these 2 shows due to the abundance of info and available ready built or kit material on which he can start out his lay out and the ....... advise on the fora from all who offer their  experiences. Think of reactions on my first questions on the Railroad forum.

but something to consider on the HB mill is that I would doubt they generally cut finished 16' boards, as they had to flume all their rough sawn boards down to the planing mill in Sanger....such a long board would be quite unwieldy in a flume...especially so in one like theirs where there were numerous curves/bends.

I didn't know the Hume mill was a rough lumber mill and that the cut lumber was shipped by flume. This must have been a wet flume, otherwise a small % would arrive in Sanger in good order for planning.


I am settling for my mill on a mirror image of the Hume drawing with the following alternatives:

- the 10' Sumner head bandsaw from Western Scale ( ready)
- a fitting log carriage with the Western Scale parts  ( in progress)
- a dry deck with scratch built logturners ( drwg in progress, pending footprint mill )
- scratch built live rolls  ( hardware ready)
- scratch built edger ( or use the Sierra West CHB kit )
- scratch built dead rolls and transfer tables
- a resaw bandsaw ( Western Scale ?? )

- 2 cilinder steam engine(s)   CHB ( ready) and / or Western Scale
- scratch build sawdust collect and discharge equipment
- all other stuff on groundfloor level

- filers room details

I am preparing drawings for a (partly) open mill to fit in such a way on a module that it can be displayed independantly.

Designing such a structure from very little knowledge on the topic to an recognisable
model is extremely rewarding    and takes most of the time
Building is the last chapter in this process.

Jacq

[marc_reusser]

I have actually never heard of a "dry" flume 

Your project seems to be progressing nicely. I look forward to photos of the equipment as you build and complete it. 

I agree about the aspect of information for someone just starting or wanting an "easier subject matter/project"....but for me that still makes it mundane/boring....and then if you want to have a little bit of fun/freedom with some aspects, you get all the nitpickers...and those that own a logging book (and it happens to be the Mich Cal Book) all suddenly become "experts" and want to let you know you are not being completely accurate to the prototype.


HB in a nutshell:

Founded in 1889 by Hiram T. Smith and Austin D. Moore as the Kings River Lumber Company, with holdings of over 30,000 acres  in Fresno County (the Millwood area), and an additional 320 acres in adjoining Tulare County

The KRLCo. found that the terrain was unsuitable for the construction of a railroad from the mill to the yards, so from 1889 to mid 1890 a flume (the Kings River Flume) was built in order to carry lumber from the Converse Basin (and what is now part of Yosemite National Park) mill to the lumber yard, planing mill and railroad at Sanger, 54 miles away.

During the depression of 1892 the KRLCo. went bankrupt. It was reopened in 1894 as the Sanger Lumber Co. In 1895 the SLCo. was forced into foreclosure by it's creditors, the lower mill was sold off, and all operations were moved to the Converse Basin.

Logging in the Converse Basin was particularly destructive the size and weight of the redwood tree's often caused then to shatter when felled, and the equipment was not able to properly handle those that didn't. The method of using black-powder to split the trees once felled also proved problematic, as many of them would splinter, thus rendering them useless. It is estimated that the redwood cut during this period totaled 191 million board feet, but only 1/5 of the total trees felled ever made it into the mill.

In 1905, amidst financial difficulties, the operation was sold to a group of Michigan investors led by Thomas Hume and Ira Bennett, and renamed the Hume-Bennett Lumber Co. The HBLCo. operation, proved to be an important factor in the economy of the area.

In 1908, The HBLCo. contracted with John Eastman (builder of the Big Creek Hydro-power System) to have a dam built on Ten Mile Creek (a Kings River tributary). The ensuing lake created by the 61 foot high dam, served as a mill pond and water supply for the flume; which had been extended by 17 miles in order to reach the lake (known as Hume Lake).

In 1917 the HBLCO. went into bankruptcy, Bennett sold his interest , and the company was once again named Sanger Lumber Co.

Thomas Hume poured large sums of money into the operation in order to maintain solvency. George  A Hume managed the company through most of it's existence, and operations continued through 1917, when the death of Thomas Hume, a fire at the mill in Hume, a forest fire which destroyed 7 miles of flume, and a wartime shortage of labor, halted work at the operation.

The Post-war slump dramatically and adversely affected the market for redwood, and the company faced mounting pressure from environmentalists to stop the logging of the Sierra Redwood. More than likely though, the high cost of logging redwoods in the mountains was the primary contributing factor in the demise of the HBLCo. (Sanger Lumber Co.).

Since as early as 1911, the Hume's had made several unsuccessful attempts to divest themselves of their California holdings, and the depression of the late twenties made it no easier. Eventually, George Hume sold off and dismantled the operation in 1927. And after many unsuccessful  attempts to sell the lands they owned,  in 1935, 20,000 acres of SLCo. lands were finally sold to the federal government, and became part of the Sequoia National Forest. The remaining Hume, Hefferan & Co. land holdings in California were sold to the State of California in 1945, after intense pressure and efforts by environmentalists to protect the largest tract of Sierra Redwoods still held by private owners.

The May 1929 issue of the Timberman noted that the Prescott Brick & Lumber Co., of Fresno, the then owners of the old Hume-Bennett interests at Sanger were planning to restart the sawmill there (the sawmill at Sanger had a capacity of approximately 50,000 feet). P.B.&L.Co. estimated that there were between four and five million feet of redwood and sugar pine sinker logs in the pond. Once milled the lumber was to be trucked to Fresno some 60 miles away.

Marc

[marc_reusser]

Well Jacq,

Color me wrong; as standard practice, they did ship the longer boards down the flume.

Pic of the "Flume Head" at the back of the mill at Hume.

Marc