Jacq's Logging Project Discussion

[lenelg]

I believe that for copyright reasons, Google Books downloads are not available outside the US, I have the same problem (from Sweden). Not that the book is necessarily under copyright here, but it would be difficult for Google to keep track of the status in all parts of the world..

Lennart Elg :?(

[jacq01]

 

   Lennart,

   you could be right, but " with a little help from some friends ...    many things are possible.
   Jacq

[chester]

  Where there specialised  design / architect / engineering firms around 1900 specializing in mill design ?  Or were mills designed by the firms who delivered the machinery like Allis-Chalmers ( carriages, bandsaws, edgers, re-saws etc. ).  Surely a mill needed to be designed / engineered and materials specified to enable a  good longtime functional structure.

How much tolerances were accepted like moving timber due to humidity to maintain the sawn dimensions, not to mention the abuse and large forces by loading/ turning logs on carriages.
I can imagine the very high fire risk caused by high friction in to lineshaft bearings due to misallignments caused by setting of building parts.  Rotting ( struvtural) timbers under the logdeck must also have been a problem.
Reading about the large amount of burned down mills this must have been a large problem.
Comparing photo's of several mills, I can understand why Pino Grande didn't have a fire. All photo's show a clean mill, so I assume this was a company policy.

The Bryant books are a revelation in understanding milling and logging philosophies and - politics, compared to all the advises/stories given and told on fora about the topics.

Jacq

Jacq, The town I lived in over in New Hampshire had 7 sawmills within the town confines. Most that I was familiar with  were set up by the mill owners themselves to accommodate the type/make of machinery and size of material expected. Fire is/was a problem mostly from spontaneous combustion of the chip and sawdust piles and even in the coldest winters those piles refused to collect snow from the heat generated within. Alignment of the machinery is always a problem mostly caused by inexperienced or careless workers. Many years ago I worked both as a logger in the woods and as an operator of debarking and edging machines, all for a short time. An experienced operator is worth his weight in gold to a mill owner not only because of his production capabilities but because he knows the limits of the machinery and how to keep it running. Every mill I've ever been to, even those here in Maine now, has had it's own layout and character although all privately owned, I'm sure that big outfits further north and out west that have more than one mill operating have standardized configurations.

[jacq01]

  I shortly intend to order the required scale lumber ( from 12x12 to 1x4) for the mill, workshop,loco shed and other structures / buildings.
As the amount is considerable, can someone give some advise what is the best place to order?  I can only find Kappler offering large sized timbers in O scale ( > 10x10 ). Are there more firms or individuals offering these large sizes ?
I assume basswood is the best / most economical to order. 
Any suggestions are welcome and very much appreciated. Maybe I have to split the order to prevent supporting the local revenue services 

I'll post the final layout - and mill plans shortly.

Jacq

[marc_reusser]

Jacq,

I by far prefer "Mt. Albert" Scale Lumber ( http://www.mtalbert.com/ )over Kappler; I have found Mt. Alberts quality to be  better and more consistent. I have had major issues with the Kappler stuff, where I have frequently had very poor surfaces with saw marks or heavy "fuzz" and have had numerous pieces with odd "figuring" (especially on the smaller dimension pieces). .........and I really hate to say that, because Kappler is run/owned by David Rygmyr of Oso Publishing/Timber Times Magazine, and I have nothing but repect for him and his publishing work.


BTW.  Beautiful drawings in the earlier post. They look very "period". I had to learn to draw like that back when I started (pencil and ink on linen), because they guy I worked for had originally learned/worked in the 1920's and wanted all his drawings to look like that. They needed to be more than just a technical document, they needed to be descriptive and artistic.

Marc

[RoughboyModelworks]

Jacq:

Mt. Albert Scale Lumber gets my recommendation too. If I'm using commercial scale lumber I don't use any other and have been using theirs since they started business. We used their lumber for kit production. The quality, grain structure, color and dimensional tolerances have always been excellent. http://www.mtalbert.com/

Paul

[jacq01]

   Looking at Mt Albert's site,  they do not accept payment with creditcards or paypal.
   As I don't like money orders ( bad experience)  it looks like I have to find an outlet who sells Mt Albert which accepts these means of payment. Any suggestions ?

  In the'"Lumber" book by Bryant nor in patent search much info is to be found regarding sawdust collection iwo the bandsaw and the transfer to the boiler-bin/burner area. It is covered extensively in the insurance section but not in technical details.
I have some info of conveying sawdust from Hull-Oakes and details from the SierraWest H0 mill, but this is not enough to make a detailed design.

Untill now this is an extremely rewarding project, exploring something that innitially appeared with a hue of "romanticism" and cuteness into a real world with some of the most dangerous professions, resourcefull engineering and hardship due to it's
" temporary" character on the people depending on it. This understanding of the original is enabling me to understand the model I am building. 
And the modelbuilding is going to my liking 


Jacq
 

[finescalerr]

Let me suggest three hobby stores who probably carry Mt. Albert stripwood and almost certainly accept credit cards:

1. Caboose Hobbies in Denver, CO (www.caboosehobbies.com)
2. Coronado Scale Models in Phoenix. AZ (coronadoscalemod@aol.com)
3. The Original Whistle Stop in Pasadena, CA (www.thewhistlestop.com)

I have dealt with all of them and they are reliable, honest, and efficient.

Russ

[Shadow Pines RR]

SPEAKING ON SCALE LUMBER JUST ORDERED A BUNCH FROM WHISTE STOP (GREAT SERVICE AND SHOP, THANKS KIETH. WOOD CONDITION DOES NOT REFLECT ON THE SHOP THAT STOCKS IT)AND IT WAS KAPPLER(OUT OF STOCK MTALBERT) AND BOY THE QUALITY IS BAD. DIFFERENT LENGHTS ,BOWING, FUZZY. I WAS REALLY DISAPPOINTED. MT ALBERT 100% NEXT PROJECT. I'LL POST SOME PICS OF THE TRESTLE I'M CONSTRUCTING.

[marc_reusser]

Jacq,

If you contact the Whistlestop,  ask For Brian....or if he isn't there Fred (I think Brian is "off" on Wednesdays), they are the owners, and will be the most help, and the most efficient......the other guys there are nice and helpful....but I always try/prefer to, deal with Brian or Fred.

Marc

[jacq01]

  Thanks for all the info.
  I am presently preparing a detailed list and will send it to the shops to get some price information. I'll put these details also in a post so the  project can be covered in all it's aspects.

  Jacq

  PS 
  Marc, 
  do you have information how many and what type of steam engines were in use to drive the equipment in the  Hume-Bennett mill ?

  Jacq
 

[jacq01]

 
  What sort of steam engine was mostly used in North western mills ?
  I know the 2 cilinder engines as made by Western Scale and CHB Sierra west
  Or were Corliss engines more prevailing ?

  Jacq

[marc_reusser]

Jacq,

I am sorry to say I have no real answer to the two previous questions. Unfortunately mills are not my strong point.

I would figure HB use fairly standard sized horizontal boilers....figure 1 boiler per stack. CHB used to make a horizontal boiler kit for this type of application (I have one somewhere, I will see if I can dig it out if you are interested.)  How many steam engines they used, I haven't a clue. I can look through the book and see if there is any info or notation re. this.....I there is, I will let you know.

Some things to possibly keep in mind re what equipment was used, or what factored into the choices (There are numerous variables that come into play):
It could be dependent on what distributor(s) was local or regional, was there a local or regional mfr. or foundry that could/did make some of the equipment.  Cost of the equipment, transportation/availability of the equipment, mill builders/owners personal choice/preference, Mill/eqiupment requirements, etc. Though there were regional distributors for specific equipment brands, there were also "general (mill)equipnt/supply catalogs" that might list a variety of sim./same type of equipment from a variety of mfrs.....so then it would come down to what the builder/owner chose.

Another source of eqiupment for smaller and medium sized mills might be second-hand dealers, other lumber companies "going-out-of-business" sale, or purchasing used equipment from other companies.....or if a company was building a new mill and tearing down the old one, they would likely use the still good/usable/adaptable/viable old equipment, and augment it with whatever new equipment they needed......which could come from any of the previously mentioned sources.

..........And remember, loggers were masters of improvisation.......


I think you would really find it interesting to read through some of the old period logging magazines such as the "The Timberman", "American Lumberman", "Gulf Coast Lumberman"......I think there is a lot of insight to be gained not only from the articles, but from the pages full of advertisements, want ads, and for-sale ads.

Marc

[jacq01]

 
  Marc,

  all those questions stem from the book lumber, logging and sawing-mill info from gazette to yahoo fora and internet searches.  The book offers the best info to be able to calculate required power.

 

CHB used to make a horizontal boiler kit for this type of application (I have one somewhere, I will see if I can dig it out if you are interested.)

I am very interested, contact me privately for the rest.

  Due to cancelling of some special projects (by the changing fuel situation and shift in buyers interest) there is no more work for me in the departement, outside some specialised consultations. As I planned my early retirement at the end of the year, I have been offered dispensation for work for the rest of the year with full pay when my present project will finish in wk 28. Till than, my contributions my be down due to travelling to Sweden, maybe China and various countries in Europe to arrange transfer of work and responsibilities.

Jacq
 




 

[marc_reusser]

Jacq,

I will contact you re the CHB boiler info.

I hope that the work situation is a positive one from your viewpoint. We will miss you during your abscences but will always look forward to your posts when you can.

O.T......but on the "sales" note, I was stunned when I was at the dealer (re. the SR issue) a couple of weeks ago, and the lot was half empty....it looked very odd...when I enquired as to what was going on he informed me that my car's entire model line had been discontinued...at least as far as importing them....they said it was due to the value of the dollar compared to the euro.  I hope it isn't a permanent thing, because IMO it's a great car....on the upside for me at least...it makes it all the more unique around town! (and now I could probably still sell it/trade it in for almost what I paid for it!   )

All the best with every thing, and please post when you can.

Marc