Jacq's Logging Project Discussion

[TRAINS1941]

Just an excellent job Jacq.  Everything is really coming together.  Like I said awhile back this will be a hard act to follow as far as sawmills are concerned.

Jerry

[marc_reusser]

In general I think it looks great, but I still have a major issue with the separation between the boiler house and the steam engine structure.....this makes no sense....neither visually nor real world function wise.

Visually I think the gap offers no benefit, and merely creates and unecessarry visual break and tension. I also feel that a unified boiler/engine structure would have a better proportional/visual balance in relation to the size of the mill structure behind it.

Prototypically I cannot see any reason these two would not share a common wall....not sharing a wall is wasteful (not cost effective) as it requires more structural work, and more building material.....something that most companies in this day would have avoided. allso not cost/labor effective is the need for additional footing and formwork, required to create a seperated structure.  By not sharing a common wall it allso does not allow each of the buildings to benefit from the additional lateral strength that would result in an L shaped structure.  It also does not make sense to run the steam ducting outside from the bioler house than back inside to the machine house.

Lastly, my concerns are.......the apparent thickness of the walls, I am pretty sure that these would have been at least in the neighborhood of 10" or more in thickness. ......and the stacks seem a bit low, you would want any embers coming out of them to be higher above the eave line, of the mill so as to make sure any cross winds creating a vortex did not tumble/blow them up under the eaves where they could easily catch the mill on fire. Look at some photos of the stacks on mills and you'll see they try to keep them a good height above the roofs.


...anyhow...just my thoughts for what they're worth.


Marc

[mobilgas]

Jacq,   Coming together nicely    Craig

[jacq01]

  Marc,
regarding the separation of the engine house and boiler house

the drawings you send me showed the engine house as an annexe to the boilerhouse and supports your remarks regarding sense of use of materials.
Reality showed something else when viewing photo's :

 

I agree with you that gap creates no added benefit. When redoing the engine house walls, I'll have a look how it looks like when they are connected as in the original drawings.

Looking at this photo and some more in the book "They felled the redwoods" the buildings are from "paneled" concrete with wall columns and beams. Are these wall panels 10" thick ??  The columns and beams I made are 12" x 12" and the panels are 4" thick.

The final smoke stacks will reach for the sky  and will be fastened to the modules top structure.

Jacq

 

[marc_reusser]

Reality showed something else when viewing photo's

Hmm...interesting.  Still doesn't make sense to me though.


I think even with a panelized system 4" is far too thin, especially so for the day (even for today this is a thickness requires some skilled and controlled work with very specific materials).  You can't get a really good solid concrete pour into a tall board form at that thickness, and especially so if there was any tupe of reinforcing mesh or bar in there. Remember that they would probably have used site available aggregate and sand to mix with the cement, so the quality control of the material and mix would have some limitations (as has been evidenced by photos of the mix found in the dam and remaining footings).  Even for a panel system I would guess at absolute min. 6" on the panels if not 8".  Remeber also, the thinner the wall/pour cavity, the less height can be done in a single pour, because the chances become greater for air pockets and "un-setteled" areas (and tamping in such a narrow space is not that easy), thus the chance for holes, gaps and weaker walls.  You would also not want too many "shallow pours" because that would leave you with a lot of weak points (dry joints).


Marc

[NORCALLOGGER]

Jacq, Marc,
Perhaps they were using tilt-up construction methods.  Tilt-up technology goes back to 1900 or so. 
Most tilt-up wall systems I have been around were 6-10 inches thick, having said that I believe the newer technology of pre-stressed panels will get down to the 4-6 inch thickness.  looking at the pictures and Jacq's model that shows the panels between larger the square columns I believe that this is how they built this structure.

Boiler flue diameter and height were very carefully engineered. To much height and the flue gases lost to much heat and wouldn't properly vent, too low a flue would cause to rapid a venting and over firing.

Just a couple of obsevations.
Is there room from the front of the boilers to the wall to allow cleaning or pulling the tubes?
Where are these boilers getting their combustion air?  I don't see any louvers or other openings to the outside, other than the wall your not modeling.

Beautiful project.
Rick 

[finescalerr]

After considering the criticism and analysis, maybe the best choice would be to scrap the entire project. After all, it is as hideous as one of those Chuck Doan things. (Chuck is the Stephen King of dioramists, you know.) If you want, I could send you a chainsaw, an ax, and a stake to drive through its heart .... -- ssuR

[hguent2003]

After considering the criticism and analysis, maybe the best choice would be to scrap the entire project. After all, it is as hideous as one of those Chuck Doan things. (Chuck is the Stephen King of dioramists, you know.) If you want, I could send you a chainsaw, an ax, and a stake to drive through its heart .... -- ssuR

Jacq,

an option would be that you send the stuff to me and I will scrap it for you. Possibly, perhaps, depends

Harald

[jacq01]

  I will consider the options Russ is mentioning....... ,  I can always burn the mill down and send the result to the NG convention.

  As one of those inquisitive idiots, I have studied the remarks from Marc and Rick carefully and decided to increase the wall thickness to 6mm in 1:48 which turns out to be 6x48:25.4= 11.33"  This should satisfy most critics I hope. 
The change has been carried out and I have to admit ( maybe a bit grudgingly after cutting 2mm hard carton..) that it looks a lot better...... That Reusser fellow, sometimes a pia but his observations are generally to the point.

The next sore point might be the texture of these walls...... any suggestions .  I'll make some test pieces to show.
I have already a nice mix of colors which all have the beige undertone.... so that is covered.  But I doubt or it ever will show up with the correct white balance setting of my camera . Now I understand why others put up so much junk and clutter outside their structures............

My old office chair finally decided not to carry my weight anymore.   The seating for the gasspring failed.  I have NOT been catapulted...

I am modeling now standing or on a small old church seat and I must admit, I get more done. I don't dose off as in the old seat, stay allert, like when a young boy in church    Next week I'll go for another comfy one......

Jacq

[marc_reusser]

I was digging through some boxes of unscanned images looking for stuff for a research project I am helping someone with, when I came across an image of Madera Sugare Pine Lumber Company's operation.....looking at it, it struck me how much the double tracked area/log dump layout and the general hilside looked like what Jacq was building on his module, I felt I just had to post it.....so below is a detail crop of that image.

[jacq01]

  Marc,

  thank you for that photo. 
   Yes, the MSCP and others you pointed out like the Hume Bennett, Brookings and others,  together with the Mumby Lumber photo
  enabled me to create a mental image of the diorama I want to built.

  Jacq

[RoughboyModelworks]

Jacq:

I'm assuming you have Hank Johnston's book Thunder in the Mountains about the Madera Sugar Pine. If you look on the map at the end of the book, you'll see North Fork south of Bass Lake, not far from the type of area you're modelling.

Paul

[jacq01]

  Paul,

  yes I have the book and curiousas I am, I looked the area up with some satelite maps.  When shifting to where the Sugarpine mill was, the area is still recognisable, the pond, the trackbed iwo the logdump, etc.

  a beautiful area, worth visiting when in California..

coming weekend the last exhibition with the H0 layout. Together with the fact that the layout has been sold make it all unreal, even a bit weird.  When returning home on Tuesday,and preparing all for transport to the new owner.

  Jacq

 

[RoughboyModelworks]

  yes I have the book and curiousas I am, I looked the area up with some satelite maps.  When shifting to where the Sugarpine mill was, the area is still recognisable, the pond, the trackbed iwo the logdump, etc.

  a beautiful area, worth visiting when in California..
  Jacq

I figured you'd do a little searching. All of that area is within a short and beautiful drive of the house. Hopefully you'll be able to make it up this way when you cross the pond in a few years. The door is always open to friends and extended family.

Paul

[jacq01]

  after returning from Leverkusen, the garage is empty.
  Was as in the last couple of days the last module has been assembled and connected to the 2 middle units.
 
   

   uprights for backdrop and valance cantilevers in place. All rail except 600mm curve in place.
   After drawing in the calculated transition curve (and possibly installing the risers for an easement of ca 1 mm) the curve will go in.

   

   

    Jacq