Watery Grave

[mad gerald]

Great work Marty ...........

... FULL ACK ...

I'll have a further look around your web pages ...

...ditto ...

Cheers

[Ray Dunakin]

Very helpful and informative, Hauk!

[finescalerr]

If you are good enough with a camera and Photoshop you can make even an average model look pretty good. So forget modeling techniques and hands-on artistry; just take good photos!! -- ssuR

[marc_reusser]

Thanks all, it has been very helpful, and given me a lot to work with. Very much appreciated.

...and we now continue with our regularly scheduled program.

Still with the wood.....working on replicating some of the color and texture of slime/algae build-up at the bottom areas of pilings in Salt Marshes (Right-hand,white board, is a test for coloring on painted boards near a muddy/damp field) Boards are 6mm wide.

[Malachi Constant]

That looks REALLY good!  Now, comparing your post to the original ... I see "wet" at the bottom of each ... but in the "real" post, I see wet IN the lighter green & tan areas up higher ... which I don't see on your model post. 
There's something slightly missing there.

Not quite sure exactly what is slightly missing ... but, looking at the real post, I see deeper shadows in those areas, and maybe that coupled with the other visuals in the photo make me read it as "wet" ... I dunno ... what you've got looks really damn good, but ... um ... it could be wetter?  I'm not kidding here (which is slightly unusual) ... just dunno how the heck to describe/express whatever the heck it is.  I do think I wanna see more contrast and variation in color tones in the green and tan areas ... for whatever that blithering is worth ... or not.

PS -- Wasn't quite sure how much the very different backgrounds were affecting the perception, so checked that using the combined pic below and come away with the same impression.

-- Dallas

[Krusty]

Dallas

I think what you're seeing is mainly the difference in lighting and processing between the two images. Marc's photo has been shot in very diffuse, soft artificial light (with two suns for extra contrast killing power), whereas the full-size photo has been shot in bright, contrasty sunlight. The full-size photo has also had the contrast cranked up (note the blocked-up shadows and the blown-out highlights), while Marc's photo is fairly low contrast (note the rather grey shadows). It's a bit hard to tell from the small reproductions, but it also looks as though the full-size image was fairly heavily sharpened, while Marc's wasn't. Most sharpening in electronic images isn't really actual sharpening, but an increase in local contrast, which fools the eye into thinking the image is sharper. One side effect of this is that fine, bright edges can tend to get the appearance of a bit of a sheen (a very good thing when you're photographing women's hair, not necessarily so much elsewhere).

Then again, seaweed does stay wet for a long time after the tide goes out....

[marc_reusser]

Dallas,

Thanks for the critique and the photo work I understand what you are getting at.
Yes, there is a darker "Kelly Green" that is occuring in the uppers of the real one. And there is more contrast on the real one as well...I think this is partially due ro the lighting and deeper shadows, but it is also likely due to the color of the wood underneath. I think both can be somewhat mitigated by a darker wood color/undercoat on mine (I just used a scrap I had at hand), as well as by applying more of the dark wash I used on the lower, in those areas. The wet is tough to do at scale, because the real world material is absorbant and very finely textured, and the wet is retianed there-in....whereas by using some sort of gloss or wet-effects on the model piece would result with the gloss sitting on the surface...and most likely causing it to look plastic. I think if the above additional color and the additional shdow wash were employed, it would go a good piece towards a wet look.

All that said.......I was not so much after replicating the post in the photo exactly, but rather trying to figure outhow to do/create the texture, and what colors would mimmick those seen on the post.....especially that orangy/yellow/brown/green in the center portion.

[marc_reusser]

Dallas,

I had athought, that might solve the varied green color, as well as the wet look......I don't have any on hand at the moment, but a dry or light brushing of Tamiya gloss "Clear Green" might work.

[Andi Little]

Apples and Pears Dallas, ... the two images you've placed against each other are aberrant for no other reason than they are simply two different photographs.
I can see what you mean though, and I believe what you're trying to infer is the lack of contrast that's evident in Marc's pic's.
This reaches into the essence of the problem for modellers [and Artists], and that is how does one render a three dimensional image in two dimensions - in modelling one re-gains the third dimension but loses the "scale". Scale being one of the basic elements of Aerial perspective [there are 5 others]. It also means that those 5 remaining elements are compressed to such a point that to isolate and re-render them in a cohesive and empirical manner is getting on to be nigh impossible!!?

This is why when someone gets pretty close we are fooled into thinking that what we're seeing is indeed real - and Marc is close, separate those two images, look at the plank in isolation and you'd be happy to believe it?

This problem you've identified though can be cured with a couple of techniques - Fine Art 2D based but could be made to work here! "Contre-jour" basically a French impressionist technique meaning "against the light" or this instance "silhouette" or more applicably "Chiaroscuro" an Italian tenet again meaning against the light but this time rather as an exercise in counterpoint.

Basically one would need to increase ones tonal range [Value] and be prepared to use a lot more "Chroma" [Luminosity] and then come to terms with the fact that now it looks great in photographs it looks for all the world like a ten-bob-tart in reality!!

It's a huge balancing act - but it can be done. I do believe Marc stated the other day that colour theory was a bit of a weakness??
And that's the problem here - it's not modelling skill, that in itself is a platitude. The problem is if he pursues this he won't be in Kansas anymore.

I could go on as it's a massive area of understanding, esoteric and subjective in parts. But to take a reality and compress it, then reproduce that with one less dimension and with all the mechanical constraints of [by comparison] pretty poor technological processes - well, the fact that the pole doesn't look just right is pretty forgiveable I think!!

It's a fantastic field of interest, and one that all modellers bump up against eventually, it could do with exploring, and perhaps a bit of understanding too as it would make all your "pin washes and modulations etc "sing far more loudly and very much clearer!!!



I'm going now before I really paint myself into a corner - PS .... Its snowing!

[Gordon Ferguson]

Andi, you have stopped taking the pills again haven't you?

It all sounds wonderful but don't understand a word  ................. it would be great if you started a stand alone thread on all this colour theory starting from first principles and developing  the process .

You obviously know and understand the process inside out as well as being able to express it.............. so share !

Marc,

I like the post as I said will be "borrowing that "  ............... re Dallas comment just a thought but how about adding some gloss medium to the mix , that way it integral with it rather than lying on top

[marc_reusser]

Andi; Wow...fascinating and confusing...I will have to re-read it a couple more times...but thank you for taking the time to write it all. The one thing I can say regarding the painterly effects and the pen washes and CM. ....is that as you note, there is a big chance of it quickly getting charicaturish or stylized (which has been railed against as looking wrong, interperative, over done...artistic but not realistic...etc.)....and the other real danger of simply getting ove-rworked....which happens all to easily and quickly.

Gordon; Not sure that will work, as you will tint the entire mix...thus losing the color variation.....My thinkin is, if you dry brush, or only dab it in certain areas, you will get those areas of dark green, and the tonal/color variation like in the pic...If you thin it enough as a wash, you will get the darker tone/green pigments settling in the recesses and nooks......thus possibly giving you a bit of a shadow effect or a bit of a highliting effect.

[Malachi Constant]

All that said.......I was not so much after replicating the post in the photo exactly, but rather trying to figure outhow to do/create the texture, and what colors would mimmick those seen on the post.....especially that orangy/yellow/brown/green in the center portion.

The textures & all are excellent ... but I figured you'd be interested in a "hyper-critical" response, so looked at it that way for kicks ...

I had athought, that might solve the varied green color, as well as the wet look......I don't have any on hand at the moment, but a dry or light brushing of Tamiya gloss "Clear Green" might work.

Here's what I think I would try ... (which could be completely wrong):

-- Vallejo Sepia and/or Brown Ink, diluted about 1 part ink to 3 parts water ... let it soak thru the texture materials ... give a second shot of that in some areas ...
-- The diluted acrylic inks will tend to dry with a touch of sheen ... but not as radical or potentially over-bearing as using a gloss would ...
-- Then mix some colors lighter  than the tones in the areas you're working with Vallejo GLAZE medium (which dries quite flat if not overworked).  Mix these fairly thin and "wet-drybrush" those colors over the areas, which have been inked ... (just like dry-brushing, but thinner paint mix, damp brush, wipe out MOST of the color on paper ... nice way to create transparent layers using opaque paints) ...
-- Let that all dry a LOT ... glaze medium produces a nice flat finish (which will be on the SURFACE above the inked areas which would have a touch of sheen) ... but DON'T overwork the glaze, because it will go gloss if you do that.  Let it dry fully before moving on ref. that concern.
-- After that's all dry ... mix Vallejo Green Ink (hideous by itself) with Sepia Ink to get a nice mossy green ... mix that with a bit of water and glaze medium and apply that like a "filter" to unify the tones in the green areas.  In the tan areas, probably a touch of Vallejo "Brown" ink (which is quite reddish) and the Green ... which, subject to Andi's correction, will tend to "cancel" each other a bit (red & green being opposites) ... and use that in the brownish areas ... and, of course, some sort of feathering to the transition.

Gee, it started out like I had a "simple" idea!    (And it still might be 27 less steps than some of the things you do!) 

Cool stuff!
Dallas

[michael mott]

Marc your continued strive for creating realistic effects is really rather mind boggling. After reading all the comments from the picture of the post that you posted, My thoughts for what they are worth without all the technical details of which I know very little, is that your post look real but dry so the game here would be to make it look wetter. and that might be a simple as taking another photograph. with just one sun. in fact it would be interesting for me to see the post shown photographed in a number of different lighting conditions side by side. Then we could compare apples to apples as Andi has indicated that we are not.

I do agree that we try to compress nature and unfortunately molecules is molecules and they don't change! Ask any live steam guys.

Michael

[marc_reusser]

Fresh from being raked over the coals for my last moss post , I figured I would stick out what was left of my neck...

The left board was done as a texture test to represent the type of green thicker moss/algae shown in the 4 ref. images on the left (this is also sim to what one often sees on bricks and concrete)...the sample to the point shown was a simple 3 step process, additional shading of darker greens or yellows could be done with acrylic or oil dry brushing or washes. The right hand board was a test to try and do the heavier dryer greening build-up  (Boards in photo are 6mm wide)




Re. the last moss post coloring....I think it can all be easily resolved with some use of Green and Burnt umber artists oils. Will give it a go later on.


....and yes, Dallas, I do enjoy the hyper critical response.


Marc

[Malachi Constant]

"And moss grows fat on a rolling stone ..." 

So, is this stuff (the texturing) a matter of very careful layering of ground foams ... or some other textures?  Or a secret magazine project?  Or ... what's the deal?  (How much more can we arsk about it?)     

Whatever the heck you're doing it definitely has the "delicate" and spongy look of moss. -- Dallas